Baymule
Herd Master
I'd be more inclined to say there is a difference between farmers, ranchers (whom BOTH care for their animals) and pure-dee total IDIOTS. Not separating the heifers from the bulls is sheer insanity.
A Jesusfreaks tales of farm life with soon to be Six kids
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farmerjan
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I cannot judge the way they did it... although in desperate situations you do whatever you can..... We have a "calf jack" and have used it on difficult deliveries... but understand the momma is in the chute and the situation is controlled. One time we did tie off the feet of a dead calf half out of a cow, to the truck bumper, and when the cow got up she did finally "pull it out" by straining against the calf that was "holding her back"... again, when in the field, you sometimes do whatever you can/have to, in order to "fix " the situation. I don't necessarily agree but I was not there.
The thing of it is, you have to contain/immobilize the cow so that you can get the calf maneuvered around to get it delivered. Pulling the calf with another truck .... well, if the person doing the pulling is not strong enough...then you have to have something to maintain and exert more tension to get it out. I cannot physically pull a calf out if it is "stuck". If not for the calf jack, I would have had some major problems with a few difficult births in the past. Again, those cows were contained in the head chute... and I could concentrate on the back half and the delivery. Many times it is getting the shoulders, then the hips, twisted around so that they will come through the pelvis. On an animal that is really too young to have a calf, the pelvis has not "spread" enough because of immaturity. Some animals should never have a calf because of the way they are built.
Again, I liken it to a human teenager, a 14 yr old that gets pregnant.... yes she CAN get pregnant, and have a baby... but she is not physically READY to have a baby..... as well as the mental not being mature enough to have one.... a heifer that comes in heat and gets bred too young does not have the physical growth to PROPERLY have a calf ... and if she does, and raises it , she is forever stunted.... because she cannot be pregnant, have a calf, raise that calf, and still continue to grow as she should. Cattle mature over time...and continue to grow until they are 3-5 years old... so a 2 yr old that calves as she should, will continue to grow her body for another 1-2 years as she is raising calves of her own. Hopefully by the time she is 2 she is 85% done with maturing... at 15-18 months she is only 50-60% done with her body maturing... so by putting her energy into a fetus growing, then lactating and feeding it if it survives, she is depriving her own body of needed nutrients and will not grow as she should. You cannot feed them enough for them to ever really catch up.
It is better for this heifer, if she survives, to not have the live calf to try to take care of. She will hopefully heal, and continue to grow and mature and get bred back to calve at a better age.
Leaving heifers in with a bull is the same as all of you with small animals - goats - sheep - even rabbits - being left in with the males when they are young and growing. How many of you pull the rams or billies at 2-3-4 months... as soon as they start to "feel their cheerios".... because they can breed.... and most all will be very dilligent to keep the young females and males apart... to prevent this very thing.
We have had a few "oops" calves over the years. Having a heifer come in heat at 5-6-8 months before we have pulled the bull from the pastures.... and getting "caught" by the bull.... and had very successful outcomes 99% of the time. BUT, it is not something I want.....and I always will wean her calf early, and have held her back so she does not get rebred... but she will go at least 18 months between calves so that she does get a rest and she can grow a little bit more... But they never get the size that their counterparts get that have not had a too young pregnancy. The thing is, we do not just let them all run together all the time... it is just something that can happen... and all of you with smaller animals have had it happen, seen it happen, and know that you do what you can to prevent it.
Most all farmers and ranchers I know care for each animal.... because if for no other reason.... they are our livelihood. If we did not care about anything else... we care about the dollars and cents of it.... and not properly caring for an animal affects the bottom line. That said, I know many many with hundreds of head of animals that care about each and every one and do whatever they can to take care and do the right thing. Do any of you think that because you have 20 head and I have 200, that I care less about my animals? It is not just the money... but that is just one practical reason.....the thing of it is responsible farmers and ranchers look out for the stock in their care as well as their bottom line.
If anyone read my post a little bit ago on my journal... do you think I would spend over 1,000 for a bottle of antibiotics if I did not care for the animals we have that have gotten pinkeye??? Yes it affects the bottom line when we sell feeder cattle... but we care about them having bad eyes, the pain and not being able to see in the pastures with their mommas....or that I would have spent several hundred dollars a couple years ago for a dart gun so we could treat them faster, in a pasture setting where we cannot get them in easily.... and the darts that are a one time use at over 5.00 a piece.... and mineral mix that runs close to $7-800/ a ton.... which we buy by the ton.....
I think that @Jesusfreak101 's DH family should get out because they are not good stewards of their animals... but they do not represent the majority of us that are farmers and ranchers....and she is smart enough to know that and has done the very best she can under the circumstances... I applaud her for the way she has handled all the problems there... I would have caused a civil war in the family by now....
The thing of it is, you have to contain/immobilize the cow so that you can get the calf maneuvered around to get it delivered. Pulling the calf with another truck .... well, if the person doing the pulling is not strong enough...then you have to have something to maintain and exert more tension to get it out. I cannot physically pull a calf out if it is "stuck". If not for the calf jack, I would have had some major problems with a few difficult births in the past. Again, those cows were contained in the head chute... and I could concentrate on the back half and the delivery. Many times it is getting the shoulders, then the hips, twisted around so that they will come through the pelvis. On an animal that is really too young to have a calf, the pelvis has not "spread" enough because of immaturity. Some animals should never have a calf because of the way they are built.
Again, I liken it to a human teenager, a 14 yr old that gets pregnant.... yes she CAN get pregnant, and have a baby... but she is not physically READY to have a baby..... as well as the mental not being mature enough to have one.... a heifer that comes in heat and gets bred too young does not have the physical growth to PROPERLY have a calf ... and if she does, and raises it , she is forever stunted.... because she cannot be pregnant, have a calf, raise that calf, and still continue to grow as she should. Cattle mature over time...and continue to grow until they are 3-5 years old... so a 2 yr old that calves as she should, will continue to grow her body for another 1-2 years as she is raising calves of her own. Hopefully by the time she is 2 she is 85% done with maturing... at 15-18 months she is only 50-60% done with her body maturing... so by putting her energy into a fetus growing, then lactating and feeding it if it survives, she is depriving her own body of needed nutrients and will not grow as she should. You cannot feed them enough for them to ever really catch up.
It is better for this heifer, if she survives, to not have the live calf to try to take care of. She will hopefully heal, and continue to grow and mature and get bred back to calve at a better age.
Leaving heifers in with a bull is the same as all of you with small animals - goats - sheep - even rabbits - being left in with the males when they are young and growing. How many of you pull the rams or billies at 2-3-4 months... as soon as they start to "feel their cheerios".... because they can breed.... and most all will be very dilligent to keep the young females and males apart... to prevent this very thing.
We have had a few "oops" calves over the years. Having a heifer come in heat at 5-6-8 months before we have pulled the bull from the pastures.... and getting "caught" by the bull.... and had very successful outcomes 99% of the time. BUT, it is not something I want.....and I always will wean her calf early, and have held her back so she does not get rebred... but she will go at least 18 months between calves so that she does get a rest and she can grow a little bit more... But they never get the size that their counterparts get that have not had a too young pregnancy. The thing is, we do not just let them all run together all the time... it is just something that can happen... and all of you with smaller animals have had it happen, seen it happen, and know that you do what you can to prevent it.
Most all farmers and ranchers I know care for each animal.... because if for no other reason.... they are our livelihood. If we did not care about anything else... we care about the dollars and cents of it.... and not properly caring for an animal affects the bottom line. That said, I know many many with hundreds of head of animals that care about each and every one and do whatever they can to take care and do the right thing. Do any of you think that because you have 20 head and I have 200, that I care less about my animals? It is not just the money... but that is just one practical reason.....the thing of it is responsible farmers and ranchers look out for the stock in their care as well as their bottom line.
If anyone read my post a little bit ago on my journal... do you think I would spend over 1,000 for a bottle of antibiotics if I did not care for the animals we have that have gotten pinkeye??? Yes it affects the bottom line when we sell feeder cattle... but we care about them having bad eyes, the pain and not being able to see in the pastures with their mommas....or that I would have spent several hundred dollars a couple years ago for a dart gun so we could treat them faster, in a pasture setting where we cannot get them in easily.... and the darts that are a one time use at over 5.00 a piece.... and mineral mix that runs close to $7-800/ a ton.... which we buy by the ton.....
I think that @Jesusfreak101 's DH family should get out because they are not good stewards of their animals... but they do not represent the majority of us that are farmers and ranchers....and she is smart enough to know that and has done the very best she can under the circumstances... I applaud her for the way she has handled all the problems there... I would have caused a civil war in the family by now....
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Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
Oh i have gotten close on many ocassions. I cant stand watching them take care of the cows as they call it and they only do care about the money they get. There was a calf that straved to death because they figured if it could run away it was fine... one reason i was determined when it came to little lady. She gonna get back in the paddock if not have a temporary one thats larger for her set up. The reason beside his family is i want to be able to give her grain. She should be bred and she now 20 month old. So been with the bull for a few month now and he the smaller bull they have had. The one the other heifer got bred by was a huge big boy which i wanted to avoid at all cost. Plus i just done with it they locked the herd away from the pasture that leads to our house for no real reason. The grass in this pasture is extremely tall. Many reason for this descion. This herd is so inbred its insanity. I might call the vet to get little lady examed for her pregnancy and see how far along she is at most she three month. I am done and its funny dh never really thought about they husbandrdy being bad (they people they socialize with are alike) until he met me. Anyways the heifer standing and eating grass not far from where she was down at last night. I have tons to say on the issue but its beating a dead horse at this point. I am just over it all. I avoid them for the most part i cant deal.
On good news dh birthday is today i be making brownies and maybe a cherry pie for him. The kids will make some cards for him. We also had my dd1 chicken hatch out eggs she had five healthy eggs last i checked so possibly five chicks we only seen three or four as she keeping them under her lol we were counting heads as the popped up from under her wings lol. She a black curly(frizzled) feather bantam. She a very protective mother so i dont dare reach in the cage to pick her butt up to count she would beat me to a pulp lol. Gonna do more laundry and organize my room and clean the crapet in there. The kids love going in there and throwing this off the end tables and other place we put things along with bring in their toys and ect so thats changing before i lose it.
On good news dh birthday is today i be making brownies and maybe a cherry pie for him. The kids will make some cards for him. We also had my dd1 chicken hatch out eggs she had five healthy eggs last i checked so possibly five chicks we only seen three or four as she keeping them under her lol we were counting heads as the popped up from under her wings lol. She a black curly(frizzled) feather bantam. She a very protective mother so i dont dare reach in the cage to pick her butt up to count she would beat me to a pulp lol. Gonna do more laundry and organize my room and clean the crapet in there. The kids love going in there and throwing this off the end tables and other place we put things along with bring in their toys and ect so thats changing before i lose it.
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Jesusfreak101
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@farmerjan
Personally i think your amazing. Your ability to reconize issues and your kindness to help others prove you care no matter the animal. Its sad that some dont and it frustrates me these people have been the only ones my dh has ever known. I told him i know several who arent that way. He just hasnt met them. He honestly need to get way from them. Being the outsider i can see the maniplutation and a abuse for what it is he cant he getting to where he see how they treat his kids and he pissed. He done nothing but jump through hoops for all of them and has been treated very poorly in return. My mother (not prefect woman can drive me nuts but she a good person) was livid the other day because she was asking why i couldnt just ask grandma if that calf (heifer hard time calling it a heifer it is pretty small) was our or not. And i told her its not my place i am the outsider according to them and therefore its not my business and thats the same with most things out here. She said i dont treat their grandson that way and that true but she not them. These people arent normal they are abusers and users of both people and their animals. I dont think dh would have seen it expect he been home more often and they have finally shown how they really are infront of him. For a long time they would ignore me and the kids when he wasnt home accuse me of cheating and ect when he was gone to him (he knows me well enough to know better) and they have treated other children in the family very well but ours get treated either like they dont exist or are burdens my kids have been sheilded as much as possible. My oldest finally noticed that they have alot of family partys and we arent invited. We live in a minute or two in walking distance we can hear the music and see everyone. Most of the time i distract the kids when thats going on. He done with it and i am thrilled he finally seen it even through i know it hurts he finally able to reconize this is not normal and not healthy for any of us.
Personally i think your amazing. Your ability to reconize issues and your kindness to help others prove you care no matter the animal. Its sad that some dont and it frustrates me these people have been the only ones my dh has ever known. I told him i know several who arent that way. He just hasnt met them. He honestly need to get way from them. Being the outsider i can see the maniplutation and a abuse for what it is he cant he getting to where he see how they treat his kids and he pissed. He done nothing but jump through hoops for all of them and has been treated very poorly in return. My mother (not prefect woman can drive me nuts but she a good person) was livid the other day because she was asking why i couldnt just ask grandma if that calf (heifer hard time calling it a heifer it is pretty small) was our or not. And i told her its not my place i am the outsider according to them and therefore its not my business and thats the same with most things out here. She said i dont treat their grandson that way and that true but she not them. These people arent normal they are abusers and users of both people and their animals. I dont think dh would have seen it expect he been home more often and they have finally shown how they really are infront of him. For a long time they would ignore me and the kids when he wasnt home accuse me of cheating and ect when he was gone to him (he knows me well enough to know better) and they have treated other children in the family very well but ours get treated either like they dont exist or are burdens my kids have been sheilded as much as possible. My oldest finally noticed that they have alot of family partys and we arent invited. We live in a minute or two in walking distance we can hear the music and see everyone. Most of the time i distract the kids when thats going on. He done with it and i am thrilled he finally seen it even through i know it hurts he finally able to reconize this is not normal and not healthy for any of us.
farmerjan
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I am glad and sad at the same time for your DH and the family issues. I have seen it elsewhere too. It is good that he has been home and around there more to be able to finally see it. Yep, it hurts to see your family through others eyes when the picture is not flattering. The way they ignore and treat your kids is the worst and I hope that your dd can understand that it is not her but them that are the inconsiderate ones.
Keep your chin up... you will find something and someplace better for your family.
The heifer can be checked as little as 35 days pregnant,,, but I would wait until she is at least 35 days away from the bull to make sure she did not get bred like the last day she is in there.... Most vets are pretty accurate at 45 days and more. If they ultrasound, it is good at 30 days... but we don't do it before 45-60 days at the earliest. Once in a while a cow will slip the calf if she is short bred... 30-35 days.... so we like to wait for the fetus to be better "attached" in the uterus..... just us. And if they catch the "time" of pregnant, in the 55-80 day range, they can usually tell the sex of the calf.... But except for being aware of a possible due date, all you really need to know is pregnant or not. After about 5 months it is hard for the vet to be real accurate as the calf will be "dropped over" the pelvic region into the "gut" and they can only make a "guesstimate".... just to give you a little heads up.
Keep your chin up... you will find something and someplace better for your family.
The heifer can be checked as little as 35 days pregnant,,, but I would wait until she is at least 35 days away from the bull to make sure she did not get bred like the last day she is in there.... Most vets are pretty accurate at 45 days and more. If they ultrasound, it is good at 30 days... but we don't do it before 45-60 days at the earliest. Once in a while a cow will slip the calf if she is short bred... 30-35 days.... so we like to wait for the fetus to be better "attached" in the uterus..... just us. And if they catch the "time" of pregnant, in the 55-80 day range, they can usually tell the sex of the calf.... But except for being aware of a possible due date, all you really need to know is pregnant or not. After about 5 months it is hard for the vet to be real accurate as the calf will be "dropped over" the pelvic region into the "gut" and they can only make a "guesstimate".... just to give you a little heads up.
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Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
Good to know yeah she might have gotten bred in may but i dont know i never saw the bull show interest. If she not bred i could careless i just pay to get her ai done. They are gonna get rid of the small black bull that i wanted her bred to and keep one of the young whit bulls so yeah i refuse to have her bred to a siblng.
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Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
Do you think i should feed her grain or weight until she further along??
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Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
LETS PLAY THE WHAT TRIED TO CATCH FIRE LAST NIGHT! Drum roll please it was the Ac unit again for the fourth time.
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- #1,579
Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
So more family drama we asked this morning when we goibg to be able to move, and then told that we could move the trailer else where on the property or we could pay rent to according to his aunt to her that is. Apparently they decided to have a family meetng about the property dh wasnt invited to and they decided to seperate up the land and cattle.... looking for a place to move in two months to and we come have a hotel birth lol since we pretty much have paid off my midwife and i am 10 weeks and 5 days from my due date. Life is crazy. Counting blessings. We got ac units so we cool the kids are all in bed all my chores are done and all i need to do is shower and go to bed.
- Thread starter
- #1,580
Jesusfreak101
Herd Master
So more family drama we asked this morning when we goibg to be able to move, and then told that we could move the trailer else where on the property or we could pay rent to according to his aunt to her that is. Apparently they decided to have a family meetng about the property dh wasnt invited to and they decided to seperate up the land and cattle.... looking for a place to move in two months to and we come have a hotel birth lol since we pretty much have paid off my midwife and i am 10 weeks and 5 days from my due date. Life is crazy. Counting blessings. We got ac units so we cool the kids are all in bed all my chores are done and all i need to do is shower and go to bed.
