CL & Raw Milk?

[Ann114]

My best milking doe has CL. I know it is CL because another doe has it. Her abscess ruptured before I expected it to, and although I cleaned and wrapped it afterwards, I'm sure some pus found its way to the ground.

My question is, since CL usually only pops up at lymph nodes and mostly around the head and neck, how common is it for one to actually be inside the udder? I see all this stuff online saying never to drink the raw milk because "what if" she has an udder abscess and "what if" it bursts, etc. It seems as if it's one of those "well it COULD technically happen, so just don't do it!"

I'm pretty confident that I'd be able to see an abscess on the skin of her udder, and feel one growing once I milk her out. I'd hate to abandon raw milk drinking because of some crazy "what if" scenario.

If anyone knows of any documented cases of CL zoonoses from raw milk consumption, please post them. I want to make an educated and informed decision based on facts rather than hype.

Thanks!

 

[Pearce Pastures]

From Washington State University
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/FAQ/cl.aspx
Though much less common than visible subcutaneous abscesses, abscesses may also form in the lungs and abdominal organs as a result of spread of the organism within the animal via blood or lymph. When abscesses are present in the lungs, the organism may be transmitted through respiratory secretions (nasal discharge or coughing). In rare cases, C. pseudotuberculosis may be present in the milk. Although CL is not sexually transmitted, it is recommended to avoid natural breeding of animals with abscesses.

From UC Davis
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/inf-go_careprax2000.pdf
The majority of diseases that affect goats, do not affect humans. However, proper sanitation and hand washing should always be practiced whenever treating or handling goats. There are a few diseases, however, that can also affect humans. These zoonotic diseases include: Q-fever, Vibriosis, Toxoplasmosis, Chlamydiosis, Ringworm, Soremouth, and Caseous Lymphadenitis. Pregnant women are more susceptible to a number of these and as a
routine precaution should not assist with delivery of kids or handle aborting does.

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/
More info on CL.

Can you get CL from a goat? Yes. Is it likely? No. Are the documented cases of it? Probably but it is not a reportable disease so you might not find much in the way of "documented cases". But should you drink milk raw from a goat with CL? Bottom line is it doesn't matter what other people's concerns and decisions are about drinking raw milk----their decision is the RIGHT decision and yours will be too. I pasteurize mine and for me and my family that is the right choice, even though we have disease free animals and are very clean in our milking procedure. But for those that don't, it doesn't make their choice any more right or wrong than ours. We have all read the same documents and have made educated decisions.

 

[Pearce Pastures]

In case you want to read through this study of some people who contracted CL from sheep. Some of them did drink raw cow and goat milk regularly. Kind of a dense read.
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf

 

[Ann114]

I did read that study prior to posting. I didn't find that it was much help because it was only one suspected case and there is no direct link between milk consumption and the disease.

I do know that it is most easily, though still rarely, contracted through direct contact when draining an abscess. That does not worry me at all. I know that I can easily protect myself from that.

I suppose that drinking raw milk from CL+ goats is more common than one would think. Lots of "goat people" don't even know what CL is, and yet they still drink the milk raw. I can say that in my area, asking for CL/CAE/Johne's testing is like asking if you see the alien spaceship above your head. People look at you like you're strange.

So are we still back to essentially 0 confirmed human cases of CL through only the consumption of raw milk?

 

[Pearce Pastures]

You could always check with the CDC I suppose but I don't know why it would matter really. It is known that you can get CL and they say it is not likely but you should be cautious. What you do with that info is a personal choice.

 

[mjgh06]

Personally because CL can have internal abscesses that cannot be seen, I would never drink raw milk from a known CL infected goat. I think Pierce Pastures gave you some very good links to review. I have never had a case of CL within my herd, but if I ever did it would be culled. That's just my opinion on it. I am not willing to risk my goat's health or my family's. Here are two good links for treating CL if you are not wanting to cull - http://www.clgoatcare.org/#5.0 http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/formalin06.html

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

If a goat gets Internal CL then it MUST be culled, however, Internal CL in goats in not very common and you can tell when they have it. They will be sickly, cough alot, hang back from the herd, etc etc.

External CL (a lump on the goat) is nto a big deal and is fine. You'll be fine. Many people have CL and don't even know it. You could cull if you want but that's up to you. I myself would not cull just for a CL lump. Now if I had a goat that had Internal CL, more than one lump at a time, or had two lumps within a 18 month period then it goes. That shows that it has or will become chronic and that goat must go.

 

[Ann114]

If a goat gets Internal CL then it MUST be culled, however, Internal CL in goats in not very common and you can tell when they have it. They will be sickly, cough alot, hang back from the herd, etc etc.

External CL (a lump on the goat) is nto a big deal and is fine. You'll be fine. Many people have CL and don't even know it. You could cull if you want but that's up to you. I myself would not cull just for a CL lump. Now if I had a goat that had Internal CL, more than one lump at a time, or had two lumps within a 18 month period then it goes. That shows that it has or will become chronic and that goat must go.

That is my position on it, too. If they are suffering or sickly in any way, they go.

My purpose for the goats was to have access to the milk. If that is now a complete no-no because of this, I will consider my options. But if it's just a "well, yeah, it's possible, but a 1 in 1,000,000 chance..." then I'm willing to gamble.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

I would too. There are MANY people that have CL in even their dairy herds and don't know it and some even do. I'm not a believer that CL will hurt humans and I know ALOT about CL (I have done many, many hours of research about it and know more than most people) and I myself do not feel that CL is bad. It really does nothing to the goat except a lump every now and than. Does cause pain or issue bla bla bla. But if it were to go Internal or the goat had more than one at a time or they were often then I would strongly suggest to get rid of the goat in the form of culling. But till then, I say keep on keeping on.

 

[Ann114]

I would too. There are MANY people that have CL in even their dairy herds and don't know it and some even do. I'm not a believer that CL will hurt humans and I know ALOT about CL (I have done many, many hours of research about it and know more than most people) and I myself do not feel that CL is bad. It really does nothing to the goat except a lump every now and than. Does cause pain or issue bla bla bla. But if it were to go Internal or the goat had more than one at a time or they were often then I would strongly suggest to get rid of the goat in the form of culling. But till then, I say keep on keeping on.

I feel that a lot of people unknowingly lump it into the same category as CAE. Now that is something I am serious about. If I had a goat with it, and it was one I absolutely had to keep for attachment reasons, she would simply not be bred. If it was a buck, sorry, you've got to go.

That is why I wanted some serious proof about milk transmission. It's easy for anyone to say "can". I want someone (preferably a vet, researcher, PhD, etc) to say "Yes, it has in these cases."

Plus, I'm sure if we saw some of the animals' lumps and bumps that end up in our food chain, we'd think CL was pretty minor.