Doe head-butting and rearing up - stop playful behavior?

[Kristi]

We just got our first goats yesterday and already I have a behavior question, lol! They are two alpine does, both bred (a month or less ago), both on their third freshening. Twin sisters, very attached to each other. They've been hand milked (no stanchion), and are used to collars/leashes.

They seem a little nervous, but then it's only been a day or so, and they had a 2 hr ride to get here. Neither seems overly interested in being petted, but will take treats from us, and allow a little petting. One is calmer than the other.

My question: Sister #2 (still deciding on names) will head-butt and rear up pretty frequently. I think she's playing, or trying to engage us in play. But the children are kinda scared of her, and I want to know how to train her to stop these behaviors. DH says that when we grab her collar, or put a leash on it, she calms down. I'm not sure I've seen that, but I'm prob busy herding my kids out of the area. Unfortunately, she seems to target the kids, I think. Not totally sure about that, since it's only been a day.

Previous owners sold them primarily because of this behavior, I think. I don't know if they tried to do anything about it, or just tolerated it.

Anyway, I've searched the forums and am thinking that only DH and I should go in their pen for now, and try squirting her with water when she rears up, saying "NO", and deflecting her away from us when she tries to head-butt. I know not to push against her head, since this is engaging the behavior.

Will these techniques work? Any other ideas? Is it possible to train her out of this?

 

[cindyg]

My pygmy wether does the rearing up thing, or did when he first got here, he doesn't try it with me any more because I either smack his nose or flick his ear if he does. I wouldn't let them get away with it at all, it isn't "playing", it's asserting. It may stop as she gets used to you and her new home, but especially with kids, and, is she horned? it could lead to injuries. A spray bottle could work, as well and that is something the kids could carry with them.

 

[taylorm17]

how old are the kids. Are the does dehorned. My goat was bottle fed and after she was taken off the bottle she would nibble and when she got older she would bite your fingers or your pants. If you get the chance flick her hard in the ear or the nose. It took my goat 3-4 flicks to figure out that 'game' wasn't going to be fun anymore. You should be able to get her out of it. She may also be nervous. The water may also work too. That is what we did when our cats get up of the counter or table we would squirt them with water, but those are cats. She might also just be moody depending on how far in the pregnancy she is or kind of nervous if she is close to due and in a new home.

 

[Kristi]

Thanks for the ideas. The does are both dehorned. Since that first day or two, she has calmed down a lot. But then again, the children (ages 5-11, she's butted them all) have stopped going in the fenced area where they are. Just me and my 11yo DD, who's almost as big as I am.

I haven't had to use the water. She hasn't reared up or head butted all week. I've been taking them a pocketful of treats every day, and only giving them one if they are calm and let me pet them. Maybe she was just really nervous, then there were a bunch of us (5 kids, DH and me) swarming around. But I do know the previous owners sold them because of this behavior vs wanting their little kids to be able to handle the goats.

She was bred 12/27, so not very far along.

Funny how their individual personalities are showing up. The 'calm one' (we're still deciding on names) will steal treats right out of the head-butting one's mouth! And she's the one who nudges her way out of the gate most often. Ha. It's the quiet ones!

Actually, they're both really quiet - no noises at all. Except today I heard a super super quiet 'maa' from one, when the other had escaped and wasn't back in yet. Is it unusual for alpines to be so quiet? (not complaining!)

 

[jodief100]

They are working out the new herd hierarchy and you are the new herd members.

 

[elevan]

They are working out the new herd hierarchy and you are the new herd members.

Exactly.

The flicking the nose or the ear will work to stop the behavior. My preferred method is the pinch their shoulder...goats will bite each other and a pinch is similar to that. I don't believe that the spray bottle works on goats, jmho. You have to assert yourself as the herd leader and you kids and DH must be top of the herd as well...they each have to assert themselves otherwise your new goats are above them in the herd and that's not a good situation. My youngest boy would run from our goats or squeal when they came near him, so our herd queen would give chase and butt him in the rear sending him face first into the dirt. While it was admittedly amusing, it could have turned into a dangerous situation. Think like a goat, not a human

 

[laceydlauren]

We have this problem with 2 does we have only had a few weeks now. They've started to settle in and are head butting A LOT! One of them is due to kid soon so I understand her behavior, but the other is a yearling and what I first thought was play has turned out to be pure meanness. She's mostly directing it towards my 2 year old daughter, who now has bruises all over her faces and upper body from horns. I try to get there in time and usually do. She's terrified of them now. Not what we were going for with backyard pygmys! We love them, but now I'm wondering if we should get some that are dehorned before we get too much more attached. I've been grabbing horns and twisting them until it hurts a little, then letting go. I didn't want to be mean at first but now they are hurting my kids!! I guess that was the wrong thing to do. I'll start pinching shoulders, flicking ears and smacking noses.

 

[babsbag]

We have this problem with 2 does we have only had a few weeks now. They've started to settle in and are head butting A LOT! One of them is due to kid soon so I understand her behavior, but the other is a yearling and what I first thought was play has turned out to be pure meanness. She's mostly directing it towards my 2 year old daughter, who now has bruises all over her faces and upper body from horns. I try to get there in time and usually do. She's terrified of them now. Not what we were going for with backyard pygmys! We love them, but now I'm wondering if we should get some that are dehorned before we get too much more attached. I've been grabbing horns and twisting them until it hurts a little, then letting go. I didn't want to be mean at first but now they are hurting my kids!! I guess that was the wrong thing to do. I'll start pinching shoulders, flicking ears and smacking noses.

With children that young I would keep a baby from this doe and bottle raise it, disbud it, and sell the others. Horns and children have no place in the same barn yard. JMHO

 

[laceydlauren]

That thought has crossed my mind. It breaks my heart to think about. First pulling a kid from mama is something I'm not sure I can do. Maybe I can start time-sharing and partially bottle feeding after a while, though. I think I would be okay with that. After seeing how much they use their horns for things that seems kind of mean also. I'm soft-hearted, I know. See my dilemma? lol Conflicting feelings.

 

[babsbag]

well I do see your dilemma and I agree with the bottle raising thing. If you spend ALOT of time with the kids when they are tiny you can most likely get a friendly goat without bottle raising.

Now the horns...I don't agree at all. I have both horned and disbudded. The disbudded don't get the head stuck in fences, they don't smash my fingers between their horns and the collar, and they don't poke me or their herd mates with horns. Somewhere on this site I read just the other day that there was a goat actually killed by horns of another goat. Horns have to go.

I also had a horned goat hook her horn through the collar of her sister and probably would have killed her if I had not been in the field at the time.