expected size for Nubians?

[kerrihornenc]

Hi, I am new here and looking forward to being a part of this group!

In June, I bought 2 Nubian does from a breeder. They were born April 12. It has occured to me recently that they arent really growing? They seem to be just as small as the day they came home. Approx 15-20lbs. Today, I bought my first buck. He was born April 20th and probably weighs 60lbs. Hes HUGE! My does eat like its going out of style, have plenty of hay, are active and have a good hair coat. I havent done a fecal on them specifically, but just had a negative fecal on my older does this past weekend. Im perplexed as to WHY they would be so small? What should I look for? Treat for? Will they catch up?

As an aside, both the does and the buck are triplets - not with each other, obviously. But basically the exact same birth situation. Just wondering

And, I accidentally posted this in the cow section, but cant delete it? How to?


Thanks!

 

[ksalvagno]

I would have a fecal done specifically on the little ones then go from there. I would also suggest weighing them. Weigh them daily or every other day if you have a scale that weighs in tenths of pounds. Weigh them once a week if you have to hold them while on a bathroom scale.

 

[helmstead]

They could just be from smaller or more slowly maturing lines, but you'll have to do as Karen suggested to rule out stunting from parasites.

I have Nubians from small lines (on purpose, so my Nigerian bucks can 'reach'). I had a litter of fullblooded twins born 6/18 - the doeling I've retained just now weighs 30 lbs. Her dam only weighs 140 though, they're just smaller examples of the breed.

 

[cmjust0]

I'm going to third the vote on checking/treating for parasites.. My guess would be coccidia, but this time of year is also reallyreally bad for barberpole worms, which are voracious bloodsuckers.

If you aren't able to have a fecal egg count done anywhere*, and if they've not been wormed or treated at all for coccidiosis....I'd probably just go on and do it.

The coccidia med that's generally accepted as the best way to go is called sulfadimethoxine -- DiMethox. You can get either a 12.5% drinking water solution or a 40% injectable, but both are given ORALLy, right out of the bottle.. The dosage on the 12.5% is 1ml/5lbs on day one, then 1ml/10lbs no days 2-5 or 7. The 40% is 3x as strong, so it's 1ml/15lbs followed by 1ml/30lbs..

I generally do about 1ml/15lbs of the 40% everyday for 5 days as a preventative...and I probably overdose, even on that schedule, as I'm more or less guestimating weights and I usually round up.

As for deworming...it's as much an art as a science, and there are many -- MANY -- different schools of thought on the subject. One thing everyone pretty much agrees on, though, is that worms are a huge problem for goats on pasture in most of the US..

Depending on how you see things, there are either 3, 4, or 5 different classes of dewormers on the market right now..

1) Benzamidazoles...safe guard, valbazen, etc.. They're the "white" dewormers. Benzamidazole-resistant barberpole worms are widespread at this point. They will kill some of them (how many or few depends on YOUR worms), so some folks -- myself included -- consider them to be a "mild" dewormer. I keep Safe-Guard on hand for three reasons...one, because it lends itself to being used to lessen a worm burden without killing them all at once and causing a badly infested goat to bleed out...two, because benzamidazoles happen to kill tapeworms where other dewormers won't....and three, because -- for whatever reason -- it seems to be helpful for seemingly light parasite burdens that seem to occur outside of the regular "barberpole season."

2) Macrocyclic lactones, aka Macrolides...ivermectin, doramectin, eprinomectin, and possibly moxidectin -- though some folks consider moxidectin to be another class.. I don't agree with that, but some do. Macrolides (you might hear them called "clear" dewormers) are generally considered to be more "stronger" than the white dewormers. Ivermectin -- and therefore macrolide -- resistant barberpoles are also widespread, but it seems like you can get a better % of kill against a population of macrolide-resistant barberpoles than you get by using benzamidazoles against benzamidazole-resistant barberpoles, if that makes sense.. Lots of times, the suggestion is to go white -> clear (safe guard -> ivomec, for instance), so that you get that 1-2 punch..

3) Imidazothiaoles/Tetrahydropyrimidines...levamisole, and morantel/pyrantel. Personally, I think levamisole should be a different class than morantel/pyrantel, simply because it's generally accepted that levamisole is WAY STRONG, whereas morantel/pyrantel are fairly mild. They apparently all kill worms in the same manner, though, and if a barberpole gains resistance to one, it will apparently be resistant to all. I read once that tetrahydropyrimidines (morantel/pyrantel) are the most infrequently used dewormers in the southeast US, which may be a good thing...the more a dewormer is used, the more poorly it works. Personally, I have no experience using morantel/pyrantel in goats.

Ok, so there are the three that are generally accepted by the experts.. Now...

4) Moxidectin...either Cydectin, or Quest gel for horses. As I mentioned earlier, it's a macrolide. However, it's generally considered to be 'stronger' than ivermectin/doramectin/eprinomectin, and I've read studies which indicate that it can kill up to 50% of ivermectin-resistant worms...but even ivermectin will kill a certain percentage of an ivermectin-resistant population. Still, it does work better.. If a goat is really, really bad off, the suggestion may be Safe Guard->Ivermectin->Cydectin or Levasole.. Unfortunately, though, moxidectin-resistant barberpoles are becoming alarmingly common...I personally know two people who have lost the use of moxidectin on their farms.

5) Levamisole...Levasole, Tramisole, or Prohibit. It's an old dewormer that was used in cattle and sheep for years and years, then largely abandoned when Ivermectin came out. Seems that folks mostly forgot about levasole until sheep/goat people stopped having luck with macrolides and benzamidazoles, so the old became new again -- even to the worms. Given that most populations of barberpole worms had never seen levamisole (or, perhaps, hadn't seen it in a long enough time that they reverted to susceptibility), it works.....until you use it a few times. Like moxidectin, I personally know of at least one person who has lost the use of levasole on their farm..

Sooo...there's a primer on dewormers.. Now, when to use them?

If you can run fecals, go for it.. If not, learn how to check the mucous membranes of their lower eyelids against a FAMACHA chart and go from there.. Do expect to see worm burdens increase in late spring and get really bad in mid/late summer through the first frost, though, as that's basically "barberpole season" in small ruminants.. That's when you want to be checking weekly, at least..

Personally, if I see a bit of paleness coming on and it seems a little early yet, I might only use a benzamidazole to try and knock the burden back a bit. If we're getting into full swing and I see some paleness -- but nothing that looks to serious -- I might drench with ivermectin. If someone comes up really pale all of a sudden and I'm not comfortable hitting them with anything very strong, I might use a benzamidazole for several days, followed by a ivermectin, and possibly followed by cydectin if necessary.

If we're in absolute full swing of barberpole season and someone looks not great, but I think I can hit it pretty hard without hurting them...I might go straight for cydectin.

Like I said, it's an art and a science. You gotta know what worms your likely fighting, what each dewormer does, how strong or mild it is, etc...and after that it's just a judgement call.

Whew... I'm tired now.

*My vets just check for the presence of eggs, and they SUCK at telling one egg from another, therefore a "fecal" from my vet is basically of zero diagnostic value in goats. Reason being, pretty much any goat on pasture will have some worm eggs and some coccidia oocysts in their feces.. It's perfectly normal, and the sheer presence of eggs doesn't necessarily mean the animal is unhealthy. For instance, a goat on pasture can have literally HUNDREDS of barberpole eggs per gram of feces and still be perfectly fine.

 

[kerrihornenc]

I bet you are tired! Im tired from trying to take all that in! LOL.

So, as I said before, my does were triplet does. Just before they came home, right at weaning, they all got sick with what the breeder believed was barber pole worms. Im not sur exactly what the protocol was for deworming that she used, but we also gave b vit injections, and managed to pull 2/3 thru the crisis. The smallest baby did succumb. Since they've been with me (~2 months), Ive done SQ Ivermectin once (vet told me too!) and Ive drenched them once. I use more than their weight when I do it, not less. I also have Panacur that I can use, I was planning to start that tonight, just waiting to find out dose information. And, I also have Strongid (Pyrantel), but I wasnt clear on what you were saying about its efficacy?

I am a small animal RVT and can do my own fecals...unfortunately, I just dont remember alot about goat parasites (but, by golly, i can sure use the internet to look em up). With the adult that I checked the fecal on, I purchased her from an auction and thought FOR SURE she'd be wormier than wood, but Ive dewormed her twice as well, and there wasnt a single egg on the slide. I scoured that thing looking for SOMETHING. Only saw lots of fibers. Her eyes are a bright pink, but the kids remain a pale pink. I could take pictures of all of this for you LOL I just want my wittles to do well Thanks for the responses, btw, I really appreciate it!

 

[kerrihornenc]

OK, i went ahead and uploaded pictures

Group picture:
Red spotted doe on L is doe from Auction, her kid is the brownish colored baby in the bush, then my new buck, Merle, is the silver spotted kid, then my Saanen, and then the 2 nubian babes Merle & Frog & Lily (Black spotted kids), are 8 days apart

 

[cmjust0]

I bet you are tired! Im tired from trying to take all that in! LOL.

Sorry.. I get carried away sometimes.

So, as I said before, my does were triplet does. Just before they came home, right at weaning, they all got sick with what the breeder believed was barber pole worms. Im not sur exactly what the protocol was for deworming that she used, but we also gave b vit injections, and managed to pull 2/3 thru the crisis. The smallest baby did succumb. Since they've been with me (~2 months), Ive done SQ Ivermectin once (vet told me too!) and Ive drenched them once. I use more than their weight when I do it, not less.

I dose the 1% ivermectin injectable orally @ about 1ml/25lbs...but I've been known to go over that. Based on what I've read, it's somewhat poorly absorbed -- in terms of blood levels, I mean -- so drenching sends most of it through the goat's GI and basically just kills susceptible worms through direct contact.

In other words...it seems pretty safe when given orally, even in high doses.

I also have Panacur that I can use, I was planning to start that tonight, just waiting to find out dose information.

Panacur is fenbendazole, which is the same active ingredient that's in Safe Guard.. Safe Guard is actually approved and labeled -- though WAY "under labeled" in terms of approved dosage -- for goats.. The Safe Guard I use is a 100mg/ml oral suspension, and I usually used it at 3x the label dose for 3 days in a row.. I've since heard other folks using it at 1ml/10lbs (which is 10mg/lb), so I've adopted that as my own strategy with pretty decent results.

And, as with many things... ...I'm pretty sure I've gone well over that with no ill-effects.

So...if your kids are in the 15-20lb range, you might go with whatever amount of Panacur that will yield 200mg to each of them, and do that for 3 straight days.

And, I also have Strongid (Pyrantel), but I wasnt clear on what you were saying about its efficacy?

I have zero data on that, and no real-world experience. Based on what I've heard from other folks who have used it, though, it's not all that great.

If it were me -- and it's not, of course, but... -- if it were me, considering the notion that worms which develop resistance to morantel/pyrantel may also develop a resistance to levamisole...which does work well in most cases...I think I'd PERSONALLY hold off on the morantel/pyrantel dewormers to help ensure that I could use levamisole successfully if it became necessary.

I guess I kinda think of it like this...there's this monster in your front yard. ( ) This monster doesn't know guns exist, so he's not expecting to be shot at...which means you could possibly shoot and kill the monster..

If you shoot a BB gun (morantel/pyrantel) at the monster, though, you probably won't kill him -- but you'll make him aware of the existance of guns. And now that he knows what guns are, he may fortify himself against guns -- all guns.

Next thing you know, you break out the .50cal automatic (levamisole) and open fire -- but he's fortified now.

Oops -- turns out, you screwed the pooch by firing the BB gun at him!

That's probably the most ridiculous thing you've ever read, but...well, that's how my brain works.

I am a small animal RVT and can do my own fecals...

unfortunately, I just dont remember alot about goat parasites (but, by golly, i can sure use the internet to look em up). With the adult that I checked the fecal on, I purchased her from an auction and thought FOR SURE she'd be wormier than wood, but Ive dewormed her twice as well, and there wasnt a single egg on the slide. I scoured that thing looking for SOMETHING. Only saw lots of fibers. Her eyes are a bright pink,

That's great! It's also highly unusual -- especially for an auction goat, I would think.

but the kids remain a pale pink. I could take pictures of all of this for you LOL I just want my wittles to do well Thanks for the responses, btw, I really appreciate it!

If they're pale pink...and one's already been lost to barberpoles...and given it's barberpole season...I'd say the anemia is probably due to barberpole worms.

HOWEVER...coccidia are bloodsuckers, too, and I've heard of goats getting anemic from coccidia -- and I'm pretty sure I've actually seen it, first hand. Whited out baby, and not during barberpole season...owner dewormed over and over again, to no avail.. The kid was of a very correct age for coccidia, though, and the owner kinda had an 'aha' moment and decided it must be coccidia.. We did a drench of dimethox and got some electrolyte in it (it never scoured, btw), but it died that very night.. Too little, too late.

And it's not as if a kid goat couldn't have both barberpole AND subacute coccidiosis at this time of year, soo.... Suffice it to say that if they've never had a coccidia treatment, that would probably be prudent as well. And you've heard of dimethox before...it's generic Albon. Having said that, as an RVT....you KNOW how well Albon works on coccidia.

So ya, I'd personally just go on and do the dimethox if it were me, but if you want to run a slide on the kids to rule it in or out, go for it.. You'd know far more about doing that than me.. I've never done a fecal egg count myself, so I wouldn't know a coccidia oocyst or barberpole egg from a hard boiled egg.

 

[cmjust0]

Saw the pics...question...have you actually weighed the Nubian babies, or does it just seem to you that they haven't grown?

I ask because goats are...weird. Babies don't appear to grow at all until a new set of babies come along and you can compare, at which point you're invariably shocked at how much they grew without you even noticing.

The Saanen doe looks like a normal adult, and the kids look well more than twice a big as something to which she'd give birth.. I know that's a weird way to look at it, but...again...my brain's broken somehow and I think funny.

Anyhow...if you haven't already, get them on a scale. Pictures definitely lie when it comes to baby goat sizes and weights, but if I had to guess.....I'd say they're closer to 40lbs.

That's just a guess, though.

BTW...and this is hellatious important...if he hasn't already, your buck WILL breed your baby goats. Count on it. He needs to come out of there, ASAP.

 

[ksalvagno]

Your little ones are adorable. Since you do your own fecals, then i would check their fecal before hitting them with anything. Then you can know for sure what you are dealing with. Also, if you weigh them on a regular basis, I think you would be surprised at their weight. Sometimes they look like they aren't growing but you get them on the scale and that tells you a different story. I have a livestock scale that reads in tenths of pounds so I can weigh even the smallest of animal and get a good weight on them. I also weigh everyone before I do any worming because I can tell you that my guesstimates have been way off for the goats.

 

[kerrihornenc]

Anyhow...if you haven't already, get them on a scale. Pictures definitely lie when it comes to baby goat sizes and weights, but if I had to guess.....I'd say they're closer to 40lbs.

That's just a guess, though. .

Well, I weighed the girls tonight, and Im pretty sure I could've been a butcher in another life... the largest of the 2 weighs 20.4lbs and the youngest weighs 16.7lbs. Tiny I never weighed them initially, but I hold them alot and they are only slightly larger than they were 2 months ago.

Tomorrow is fecal day, I'll let ya'll know when I get home what the results are! Thanks again, guys!