Goat Conformation/Breeding Education

[BetterHensandGardens]

We've had our Dwarf Nigerian doelings for a month, and I'm wondering how to learn about what makes a good goat (I know amount of milk is ultimate measure), what am I looking for in terms of conformation? Are there standards somewhere that compare one goat to another for this feature vs. that, etc. Also, how do you learn which goats would make the best sires for future goats, given the goats you've got? Maybe I'm not searching on the right thing, but information seems to be a little scarce?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ariel301]

Yes, there are conformation standards for goats in general, and then some things for each breed. I've noticed a lack of information available as well, I have had to learn by asking people to look at my goats and tell me what was good and bad.

Some good conformation things to look for in a dairy goat:
Length of body--you want a nice long animal.
Flat topline--from the withers to the tail should be a flat line, not curved/hunched
Uphill stance--when they are standing on flat ground, they should be a little taller at the shoulder than the rump, so they look like they are going uphill
Width through the escutcheon (arch between the hind legs)--the wider the arch, the bigger the udder that can go there. Look at your potential breeding buck and imagine an udder in there, how much do they have room for? This is an important thing to consider for breeding. (Also look at that buck's mother if you can, because that is the udder he's passing on)
Udder on does--you want the udder to be attached firmly and high, not saggy at all. The front attachment should be smooth, with no 'pocket' where you can sort of put your hand between the udder and the belly. Viewed from the side, an ideal udder should show one third in front of the hind leg, one third hidden by the leg, and one third behind the leg. Of course, it should also have a good capacity for milk, and not be lopsided in shape/size. The teats should be a good size for milking, not too small or too long or too fat to get your hands around, and should be placed in a good position for getting ahold of them--not pointing too far forward or out to the sides.
Legs--when viewed from in front and behind, the legs should be straight, not knock-kneed or bow-legged. Especially look at the hock joint in the rear, they should point straight backwards, not be twisted inward towards each other.
Hoofs--the toes should point straight, not be curved in too much or splayed outward.

If you have some good pictures of your girls, you could post them here and people who know what to look for can point things out for you on them. I'll try to get you some of my photos and show you some things on my animals.

 

[Ariel301]

Ok, here's some photos for you.

Ok, in this picture I was holding the camera crooked, the fence line should actually be straight, not on a slope! But you see how Ebony has a nice flat back and is long, and appears to be going uphill? That's a good trait. Her legs are nice and straight when viewed from the side, with a good angle to the hock--not "posty" in the back legs. She has a long neck, feminine head, and her shoulder blends smoothly into the rest of the body. This is a very good doe. (I kick myself for selling her every time I look at this photo!)

This is a fairly good looking doe from behind. See how her legs are straight, not twisted in or out at all? And she's got plenty of width. The udder attachment is nice and high, and she has a strong medial ligament (the dividing line between the two halves of the udder). The udder is symmetrical and evenly sized on both sides. Her teats are pointing a little too much to the sides though, they should hang straight down. She could also do with a bit more capacity (though she holds a lot in that little udder!)

The first thing you should notice on Flora is that she is very "uphill". Her legs could use improvement though, she is "posty" in the rear--not much angle to the hocks, they're very straight. She's not quite perfectly straight through the knees on the front legs either, and her neck is a little on the short side. But a fairly nice doe overall.

Now here's a doeling with some issues. See how the hocks point inward? That is undesirable. She also has a very steep angle to her rump, which can make it more difficult for her to deliver her kids. She's fairly narrow through the escutcheon as well.

 

[cmjust0]

Things I look for right off the bat...the super quick once over:

Body length...I like long goats.

Slope angle between hips and tailhead...the more shallow, the better. Goats that slope hard tend to have kidding difficulties.

Back legs...google "posty legged" and "sickle hocked" for images of what you want to avoid. Good straight cannon bones under hocks that actually have some angle when the goat's standing normally is kinda what you're looking for.

NOW...if you can find a long goat without too much slope, who also has good straight rear legs...it's worth looking at further. If not, well...look at the next goat.


So, from there, you might walk around behind and see if it's 'cow hocked' or not...where the hocks kinda point inward at one another..

If we're talking about a doe, look at her udder...though it's kinda hard to tell what it's going to look like if they've never been bred. After you've been around it a while, you can *sorta* get an idea of what a doeling or dry yearling's udder might look like by the way they roll under back there...

And if it's a buck...well, make sure he's got all his gear and everything looks to be in the right place. Symmetry's good. I don't personally like 'nut cleavage' either, which is where they'll have a little dimple on very bottom center of their testicles..

Also, if the hairless 'v' that runs down a buck's backside is super narrow, he's probably gonna be what I like to call a "hatchet ass"...thin and gangly in the hiney area, possibly with his feet set in closer than his hips. I don't like that...it's kinda feminine, IMHO..

Obviously, look at pasterns and feet...if the leg is rocked back over the foot, putting the dewclaws a little too far down (google 'coon footed'), that's not great..

I like a doe's neck to be fairly thin, and a buck's neck to be thick.. I like a doe's head to look like a doe's head, and a buck's head to look like a cinder block.

Good coat...bright eyes and pink mucous membranes...etc etc etc..


That's just kinda how I look at a goat, though. I dunno if that's how **an actual judge** would look at one or not.

 

[()relics]

the first place you would look would be the standard that the registering body of your specific breed of goat has set. ABGA/USBGA would be examples for boer goats or NDGA would be for your nigi dwarfs. These registries have a specific standard that all registered animals must conform to if they are to be registered. Regardless if your goats are registered or not you would be able to compare them to the set standard....Just like chickens compared to The Standard of Perfection published by the APA. All breeds are different, a trait may be allowed in one breed and considered a disqualification in another....Google NDGA I'm sure they have something on their site that will help.

 

[BetterHensandGardens]

Yes, there are conformation standards for goats in general, and then some things for each breed. I've noticed a lack of information available as well, I have had to learn by asking people to look at my goats and tell me what was good and bad.

Some good conformation things to look for in a dairy goat:
Length of body--you want a nice long animal.
Flat topline--from the withers to the tail should be a flat line, not curved/hunched
Uphill stance--when they are standing on flat ground, they should be a little taller at the shoulder than the rump, so they look like they are going uphill
Width through the escutcheon (arch between the hind legs)--the wider the arch, the bigger the udder that can go there. Look at your potential breeding buck and imagine an udder in there, how much do they have room for? This is an important thing to consider for breeding. (Also look at that buck's mother if you can, because that is the udder he's passing on)
Udder on does--you want the udder to be attached firmly and high, not saggy at all. The front attachment should be smooth, with no 'pocket' where you can sort of put your hand between the udder and the belly. Viewed from the side, an ideal udder should show one third in front of the hind leg, one third hidden by the leg, and one third behind the leg. Of course, it should also have a good capacity for milk, and not be lopsided in shape/size. The teats should be a good size for milking, not too small or too long or too fat to get your hands around, and should be placed in a good position for getting ahold of them--not pointing too far forward or out to the sides.
Legs--when viewed from in front and behind, the legs should be straight, not knock-kneed or bow-legged. Especially look at the hock joint in the rear, they should point straight backwards, not be twisted inward towards each other.
Hoofs--the toes should point straight, not be curved in too much or splayed outward.

If you have some good pictures of your girls, you could post them here and people who know what to look for can point things out for you on them. I'll try to get you some of my photos and show you some things on my animals.

Thankyou, I'm printing this out to go study the girls, and I'll try and take some good pictures of them to post. This is all very helpful

 

[BetterHensandGardens]

Things I look for right off the bat...the super quick once over:

Body length...I like long goats.

Slope angle between hips and tailhead...the more shallow, the better. Goats that slope hard tend to have kidding difficulties.

Back legs...google "posty legged" and "sickle hocked" for images of what you want to avoid. Good straight cannon bones under hocks that actually have some angle when the goat's standing normally is kinda what you're looking for.

NOW...if you can find a long goat without too much slope, who also has good straight rear legs...it's worth looking at further. If not, well...look at the next goat.


So, from there, you might walk around behind and see if it's 'cow hocked' or not...where the hocks kinda point inward at one another..

If we're talking about a doe, look at her udder...though it's kinda hard to tell what it's going to look like if they've never been bred. After you've been around it a while, you can *sorta* get an idea of what a doeling or dry yearling's udder might look like by the way they roll under back there...

And if it's a buck...well, make sure he's got all his gear and everything looks to be in the right place. Symmetry's good. I don't personally like 'nut cleavage' either, which is where they'll have a little dimple on very bottom center of their testicles..

Also, if the hairless 'v' that runs down a buck's backside is super narrow, he's probably gonna be what I like to call a "hatchet ass"...thin and gangly in the hiney area, possibly with his feet set in closer than his hips. I don't like that...it's kinda feminine, IMHO..

Obviously, look at pasterns and feet...if the leg is rocked back over the foot, putting the dewclaws a little too far down (google 'coon footed'), that's not great..

I like a doe's neck to be fairly thin, and a buck's neck to be thick.. I like a doe's head to look like a doe's head, and a buck's head to look like a cinder block.

Good coat...bright eyes and pink mucous membranes...etc etc etc..


That's just kinda how I look at a goat, though. I dunno if that's how **an actual judge** would look at one or not.

Well, I've been googling the wrong things! No wonder I can't find any information. Just a newbie - don't speak the language yet. Thanks for the help.

 

[BetterHensandGardens]

the first place you would look would be the standard that the registering body of your specific breed of goat has set. ABGA/USBGA would be examples for boer goats or NDGA would be for your nigi dwarfs. These registries have a specific standard that all registered animals must conform to if they are to be registered. Regardless if your goats are registered or not you would be able to compare them to the set standard....Just like chickens compared to The Standard of Perfection published by the APA. All breeds are different, a trait may be allowed in one breed and considered a disqualification in another....Google NDGA I'm sure they have something on their site that will help.

This is what the NDGA has for the standard:The Nigerian Dwarf is the only true miniature goat breed of dairy type and character. Its conformation is similar to that of the larger breeds, but the parts of the body are in balanced proportion relative to their size. The profile of the face is straight although some have a small break or stop at eye level. The ears are alert and upright. The coat is straight with short to medium length hair; with short, sleek and smooth hair being ideal. The desired height for does is 17 to 19 inches with a maximum of 21 inches. The desired height for bucks is 19 to 20 inches with a maximum of 23 inches. There is no minimum height for does or bucks. Any color or combination of colors is acceptable, with Pygmy goat breed specific markings being a moderate fault.
This is what AGS has for the standard:The Nigerian Dwarf is a miniature dairy goat originating from West Africa and developed in the United States. The balanced proportions of the Nigerian Dwarf give it an appearance similar to the larger, Swiss breeds of dairy goats. Shorter height is the primary breed characteristic of the
Nigerian Dwarf, with does measuring no more than 22 1/2 at the withers and bucks measuring no more than 23 1/2" at the withers.

They are known for their high quality milk, often with exceptionally high butterfat content. Nigerian Dwarves are gregarious, friendly, hardy animals that thrive in almost any climate.The medium length earsare erect and alert. The face is either straight or slightly dished. Thecoat is of medium length, and straight. The Nigerian Dwarf is the only dairy breed known to occasionally have blue eyes. Both brown & blue eyed animals are encountered with no preference being given to either eye color. Any pattern, color, or combination of colors is acceptable.

Mature Nigerian Dwarf does should be no more than 22 1/2 tall at the withers. Mature Nigerian Dwarf bucks should be no more than 23 1/2" tall at the withers.
These sound good but are not particularly helpful when looking at a goat. I was looking for illustrations of what is good and bad?

 

[ksalvagno]

You can purchase the Judge's Training Manual from NDGA. That gives you everything you ever wanted to know and more.

 

[Roll farms]

I get the Dairy Goat Journal and learned A LOT from reading and understanding their "judging" section every month.

They post pics of 4 goats and judge them, and explain why each goat places the way they do...and explain the faults / strong points.

They even do a feature on Nigerians once a year, maybe you could find a back issue through DGJ's website.

FWIW, though....show quality doesn't always equal milkability.

A hocky doe can milk like a cow, and a beautiful show doe might not....so it also depends on what your goals are.
There are good does w/ wonderful confirmation who milk well, but it's a lot easier to find an ugly doe who milks well or a pretty one who doesn't.