Legal question

[Carla D]

Hello, as some of you know, I’ve acquired a couple goats yesterday. Is there anyone in here that has a little bit of legal or contract knowledge? I’m trying to figure out how to proceed with this situation. I was hoping if I shared my conversation/interaction with the gal I acquired the two goats from if I have legal rights to do what I want to and am I legally obligated to ablige her request? I’m trying to decide if I should ask for some help from an attorney. I don’t really want to put our entire interaction up in the forum for everyone to see. Is there anyone in here that has some knowledge to at least point me in the right direction?

 

[Southern by choice]

What is the gist of the story?
Were they sold as pet only no breeding etc?

 

[rosti]

Most of the time, when it involves animals on this small scale,(dog breeders, goat breeders, etc. Horse and other things like that are different though.) there is no legal strength to what the seller says or even the contract they make you sign.

 

[Mini Horses]

There is strength here in VA. Especially so if in writing.

 

[Carla D]

What is the gist of the story?
Were they sold as pet only no breeding etc?

I have inserted the entire conversation in my response to your questions. What do you think?

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Why are you so rushed to have the goat wethered?

I found the CL ad and the goats look pretty healthy. One may be a little thin, but not starving by any means.
We had mini Nubians. As they get older you DO have to limit their feed intake. You certainly can't free feed them! See the doe in my avatar? She is a Nigerian Dwarf. She loves food. She would eat herself to death if I let her. She was well over 100lbs at one point (extremely overweight) and that was on hay alone. But she is convinced she is starving and would mug you if she smelled feed!
Our one mini Nubian buck would get obese on very little feed. It's normal for them to want to eat.
There is a huge difference between a "pot belly" from parasites and from a rotund, healthy (maybe heavy) goat. A goat can be emaciated and have a huge belly. A goat can also be obese and have an empty rumen that makes them appear "sunken in" yet they still have adequate (or to much) fleshing. Research "body condition scoring (BCS)" in goats

It honestly looked like you rushed into getting these goats and now it is backfiring
Per the ad: "I'm trying to liquidate quickly." Do you know why? There are many reasons for one to need to move the herd quickly. It could be many things. I have seen some have "knee jerk reactions" and have a stress sale- for whatever the reason may be.
Why she would send these goats to a stranger, with the plans to use the buck, I don't know.
That being said, I do have contracts on quite a few goats I have sold.
It is however, in writing and only to those that I already know. Not a complete stranger.
You sounded like the perfect home for these boys, she was probably thrilled to have them go to a great home. It sounds like this was rushed on both sides and not thought through.

There were some major issues on your part as well. Those goats should have been quarantined. Tossing adult goats in with young kids is a bad idea all around, especially if you do not have the proper facilities. Disease testing, vaccines, and dewormings should have all been discussed BEFORE you bought the goats.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Here is a good example- both these goats are parasite free and coccidia free
The red goat was born in May the black goat February. We show both these goats, however they have very different body structures. They are both lamanchas, both does but from two different lines. Both healthy.
The other pics show the body capacity and sizes. The red doe 75-80# at 5 months old the black doe is about the same weight but she is 8 months old. The red doe is not fat at all. The black doe is not skinny. Goat with healthy rumins want to EAT and they generally act hungry all the time.

 

[greybeard]

Why she would send these goats to a stranger, with the plans to use the buck, I don't know.

I suspect because that 'stranger' was very close by.

Those animals should have been quarantined. Tossing adult goats in with young kids is a bad idea all around, especially if you do not have the proper facilities

I tweaked that a little.
No matter what the species, new animals should always go thru a period of quarantine even if bought or otherwise acquired from the best and most reputable breeder in the world.

Cattle, goats, sheep, aquatic species, horses, mules donkeys, birds, canine and feline, graboids and chupacabra. All newbies should be kept separate until the new owner KNOWS (as well as is reasonably expected) what their health conditions, attitude, needs, and docility levels are.
The only exception I make to that rule is if I have to get an outside sourced calf to graft to a wet cow that has lost her calf, and even then, I try to separate the pair from the rest of my herd.

I make very few written contracts. Once I say I will do something, agree to something, no paper or ink stamp will make the pact any stronger or weaker.

 

[animalmom]

Regarding the intact buck... please remember we ask questions because we really want to help make you a successful goat mom... why rush to castrate? Yes wethers are loving, funny guys but bucks can be just as nice. I have Nigerian Dwarfs and they can breed year around but they are only fragrant during the fall. My guys love being loved on and I wouldn't trade them for anything. They are not aggressive, but also they are not huge goats.

I can see the sense in getting all the guys done at one time rather that have to go through the surgery process twice, but...

I can also see not wanting to have a buck if you are not going to breed... but still I love my wee bucks.

Your wethers are going to head butt each other and occasionally be crabby, with or without a buck.

I don't think the "seller" has stated anything definitively. What I read was all wishful thinking for something that she may want to do down the road. If she was concerned over the intact male then she should not have given him to you. You have been clear with her.

Do keep us posted on what happens with this person. It is a learning experience for all of us.

Oh, yeah, it really is better to quarantine new stock before introducing the newbies to the oldies... I wasn't set up to be able to do that when I started my journey down the goat path. Very fortunate for me, I didn't have any problems but what I did was not optimal or wise. Now I have a quarantine area... just in case I can't turn down a goat with "Love ME" in her or his eyes.

 

[Carla D]

Why are you so rushed to have the goat wethered?

I found the CL ad and the goats look pretty healthy. One may be a little thin, but not starving by any means.
We had mini Nubians. As they get older you DO have to limit their feed intake. You certainly can't free feed them! See the doe in my avatar? She is a Nigerian Dwarf. She loves food. She would eat herself to death if I let her. She was well over 100lbs at one point (extremely overweight) and that was on hay alone. But she is convinced she is starving and would mug you if she smelled feed!
Our one mini Nubian buck would get obese on very little feed. It's normal for them to want to eat.
There is a huge difference between a "pot belly" from parasites and from a rotund, healthy (maybe heavy) goat. A goat can be emaciated and have a huge belly. A goat can also be obese and have an empty rumen that makes them appear "sunken in" yet they still have adequate (or to much) fleshing. Research "body condition scoring (BCS)" in goats

It honestly looked like you rushed into getting these goats and now it is backfiring
Per the ad: "I'm trying to liquidate quickly." Do you know why? There are many reasons for one to need to move the herd quickly. It could be many things. I have seen some have "knee jerk reactions" and have a stress sale- for whatever the reason may be.
Why she would send these goats to a stranger, with the plans to use the buck, I don't know.
That being said, I do have contracts on quite a few goats I have sold.
It is however, in writing and only to those that I already know. Not a complete stranger.
You sounded like the perfect home for these boys, she was probably thrilled to have them go to a great home. It sounds like this was rushed on both sides and not thought through.

There were some major issues on your part as well. Those goats should have been quarantined. Tossing adult goats in with young kids is a bad idea all around, especially if you do not have the proper facilities. Disease testing, vaccines, and dewormings should have all been discussed BEFORE you bought the goats.

I do know that I’ve made many mistakes in this transaction. The two biggies being we didn’t have very clear ideas as to what each of us had in mind with the two boys. The second was putting them in with my little guys without having them quarantined and vet checked first. Things did move too quickly on both of our parts.

I’m not in a rush to have him wethered. But, I have no intention of breeding goats. I realize livestock is dealt with differently than a house pet or the family pet. My big hurry though is the goats do need to have a checkup, be vaccinated, and possibly treated. I think in an earlier post I mentioned the fact that I don’t have any healthy adult goats to compare them with. My 6 week old goats definitely look thin before I give them their bottles a couple times a day, then they look huge after I give them their bottle. So I’m only guessing that there may be an issue with them that needs to be worked on. They are older than any goat I’ve had any contact with. So I may be totally wrong on my assessment. I believe I mentioned that as well in a previous post.

As an animal owner I believe in doing the responsible thing by my animals. Again, I realize that “farm animals” are different than the typical family/house pet. I am perfectly willing to allow her to breed him once. But, why would she give away a buck that she plans on breeding down the road? So I wanted to give her an opportunity to take them back if she regretted giving them away, especially the buck. All she wanted for the wether is for him to have a good home and to be loved and cared for. She lives only two miles from where we do, and it is on the route to and from the farm. But on the my side of things why should I invest a ton of money on two goats and have her wanting to possibly take the buck back? I could tell that she really loved these goats. I could sense it during our meeting, and the disposition of these two goats is outstanding. She and her family had obvious spent a lot of time tending to and loving them. It had to of been a tough decision to part with them. The wether was one of her very first goats she had. And then she still wants to breed the buck that she gave away. She also believed in doing things the holistic way, which I was unaware of. Not that that’s wrong or a bad thing. It’s just different than what I’m used to dealing with. On the holistic side, I wanted to give her the chance to either take them back since I would be vaccinating them and I prefer wethers at this point. While I know an animal treated holistic way can be vaccinated and treated in a medical manner vs. holistic it can’t go the other way. Once I’ve had them vaccinated, treated if they need treatment I’m pretty sure that can’t be reversed. She had her reasons for going the holistic route, for giving the two to a complete stranger. It might be very disturbing to her if she really regretted her action of giving them to me.

In my experience fixed animals make much better pets both in disposition, and they seem to have less health problems because they aren’t trying to escape or wandering around so they can do the natural thing of mating. I do know that goats are different than the house cats and dogs I’ve had in the past. Only I don’t know what ways they will be different. I don’t want to deal with some of not so pleasant things intact male goats have been reported to doing. They get smelly from peeing on themselves when they are trying to mate, they can get to be less “friendly” when hormones take over, I’d rather have all of my goats fixed so they are all on the same playing field, and I’m under the impression that bucks need to be fed differently than does and wethers. At least that’s what I’ve seen in many places on the internet. I don’t wish to invest a lot of money on animals she might be regretting “giving them away” and her asking to have the buck at minimum returned to her. Plus, theirs a risk of her not allowing me to take the buck back to the farm because she regretted giving him away. I don’t think it would be fair if that happened after feeding, vetting, and putting in time with him then she breeds him with her does. We did rush into this. Both of us did. Many mistakes were made. So I wanted to give her the opportunity for her input or take them back if she and her family truly regret giving them away. And give her that chance before I invest in more bales of hay, feed, time, and vet care. It was pointed out to me that I could possibly breaking an agreement if I did wether him down the road. There is one more thought that I wanted to take into consideration. I’m suspecting it would be harder on Beethoven to have him fixed a year or more down the road than if it were done soon or at least before he’s a year old. I don’t have experience with goats at all prior to getting my young boys at 10 hours to three days of age. I only have a small understanding about the pigs my hubby and FIL raise together. I made many mistakes not only with this transaction, buying baby goats at $5/head, and not knowing a little bit more than I did before taking the leap on getting goats in the first place. I’m trying to smarten up a bit and to think of more aspects than I have been. I’m sorry this is so wordy and long. I can get a bit long winded at times. I hope this explains to you what I’ve been thinking and why I want to have Beethoven eventually fixed, and why I’d prefer we figure these details out before I put a lot of money, feed, and time into them. It’s time to figure out the things we failed to work out prior to my taking them to the farm without having the details worked out.