Now I've gone and done it -- What to do??

[lastfling]

One of my senior does's has been giving me fits when it comes to breeding. I've bred her 4 times now which turns out to be the problem -- Number 4 was this past weekend (10/23) - 35 days after an apparently unsuccessful 3rd try. I had previously bred her on 9/17 and after 31 days had past and no kits, I figured once again no kits. On day 31 I did see her pick up a mouth full of hay, but she did nothing with it, as it was all gone at feeding time the next day. The nest box was being used as comfortable sleeping quarters, no fur pulling, she'd pull out any hay I put in, etc. You may be able to see where this is going.. I come home from work today and go to feed and what do I find -- a kit on the wire -- cool but moving -- a full 38 days after breeding. Now I'm in a quandary -- when I bred her for the fourth time she was very receptive to the buck and he appeared to be successful 4x in a very short time. Assuming this was also a successful breeding what is going to be the result. I know it can't be good for the doe as she will not have weaned, the latest. Assuming it lives. One is all I can account for at present. What's even more puzzling, she only started pulling fur and nest building, after I put the kit in the box and put a bit of fur I'd saved from another doe earlier in the box. She has been one honery girl ever since I acquired her and things don't appear to be changing. Any thoughts, comments, will be appreciated. My palpitating skills as you can guess - are crap. Even as late as this past Friday. Thanks

 

[crazyturkeydesigns]

What age/breed (senior is a little generic) is this doe? IMO you're at a crossroads...if this doe has incredible type/great lines/fur/color/whatever, are you willing to give her another chance? I've found that mothering skills (includes litter size, ease of breed-a-bility, etc) tend to run in lines. I do say "tend," as there are always exceptions, but...more often than not bad moms come from bad moms. If you absolutely cannot afford to NOT try again, I'd breed her and another doe at the same time. That way if she decides not to care for them you'll have a foster available.
For us, it's 3 strikes you're out rule...three unsuccessful breedings and the doe is culled, provided she is the problem. IMO I'd cull her after she kindles her next litter (if she does) and invest in a different doe if possible.
Another question...did she have the kit after being put in with the buck? I've heard of people placing a doe in a buck's cage to "induce" (I use the term loosely and I've never used this method myself) labor. Just a thought. If the kit survives and she does kindle again, you may have to hand feed the kit. I'm not sure a larger kit wouldn't smoosh or injure smaller younger kits. Not too sure about the kit, though. I'd do some research and hear some other people's opinions.
One more note...palpating isn't really easy to get the hang of...it helps a LOT to have someone experienced help you and to have another definitely pregnant doe to compare to. Also...don't be afraid to hurt the embryos...as long as you don't grip the abdomen (you're really just sort of massaging and feeling around) you should be fine. I usually palpate around day 10 and then again at day 15/16. There's lot of info about it online, too.
Good luck and keep us posted! Going through this sort of thing is never easy

 

[brentr]

I can relate with what you're going through. I am currently experiencing almost the exact same scenario. Bred doe, palpated her and found no kits (so I thought), re-bred, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. In my case, the doe showed strong nesting signs (which was a surprise), and ended up delivering one kit on day 33. I had another litter born 48 hours earlier, so I fostered the one kit into that litter. All has gone well, thankfully. I still suspect that my doe has more kits in her from one of two (yes, two) subsequent breedings in which she was very receptive and serviced multiple times.

I am simply going to wait her out, and give her a nest box at the projected kindling times (day 28 after each breeding date & remove at day 35 if nothing) and see what happens. I have palpated her twice and am reasonably certain she has 1-2 more kits in her. But like you, I think my skills are suspect when it comes to palpation. After she has cleared the last possible kindling date, if there are no kits, she'll be bred again. That will be her last chance. No kits = stew pot.

If by some fluke she has babies from both breedings (which would mean she had 3 separate litters inside at one time; highly unlikely), then I'll just evaluate the numbers when the last ones are born, and simply remove the the early or late litter so either way she is only rearing one set of kits. Unfortunately that will mean some kits will die because I won't have any available foster mothers. In any case, I think her litter(s) will be very small.

Do you have another doe that you can foster the kit onto? And then wait her out like I am doing with mine? That way if she has more kits inside her, then when they are born she'll only have to handle those.

Not much help, I realize, but I wanted you to know that someone else has had the same experience.

Best of luck in whatever course of action you take. I'd be curious to hear progress updates from you.

 

[lastfling]

Well, checked her again late last night and the nest building light bulb must have come on in her head. I thought I saw another kit in the box, but wasn't completely sure and didn't want to disturb her. Checked again the morning before leaving for work and yep -- 3 kits now. I guess I'm going to play it by ear from hear on out and see what happens in about another month. Unfortunately, I don't have another doe I can foster her out to. Well, maybe not, I do have a ND that is due about a week or so before this one. The one I'm dealing with now is a Tan. If she is bred and did take, would the ND be able to foster the potential new ones if her own are say a week or so old? Of course if this girl goes as long as she did this time, it could be a moot point. In answer to some of the previous questions. This doe is just under 2 yrs old and has kindled 2 previous litters according to the information I received when I purchased her. She is out of great lines, and has 3 legs, which I believe if paperwork is submitted to ARBA would entitle her to GC. Culling is not an option at this point in time, as I suspect part of her reception issue may have been heat related to the buck. I do have another doe, but she is about 2 months off a litter and has not been rebred as yet. Much more breeding and I'm in to rabbitry expansion as I'm running out of space!! BTW full count, bases loaded and she came thru. So even though bred 4 she hit on 3, even though it was a long 3. Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. Learning more every day!

 

[hillbillycitygirl]

Im having the same problem!! I am a first time breeder so I am seriously lost and reading every forum and watching every youtube video I can get my hands on. I bred my doe 35 days ago, and she got huge, shes so big and she got a big huge double chin...but no kits, nothing. no fur pulling. I tried the feeling the belly thing and have no idea...Shes acting really subdued and tired. I put hay in her nest box and she ate it. I put my buck with two other does too and Im wondering if hes a dud (even though I was promised he was proven)

 

[Ms. Research]

Sorry to hear all are having a difficult time. I'm finding breeding isn't as easy as just putting a male and female together and poof 30 + days later healthy kits.

Environment has a lot to do with difficulty in procreation with rabbits. Heat does a lot to affect the reproduction. I don't know about you, but the humidity this summer was awful. Hoping the cooler weather brings success for you all. Keep us posted.

 

[crazyturkeydesigns]

Sorry to hear all are having a difficult time. I'm finding breeding isn't as easy as just putting a male and female together and poof 30 + days later healthy kits.

Environment has a lot to do with difficulty in procreation with rabbits. Heat does a lot to affect the reproduction. I don't know about you, but the humidity this summer was awful. Hoping the cooler weather brings success for you all. Keep us posted.

Excellent point!! I totally didn't even think about the heat because I saw the breedings were in september and we had a relatively cool (and rainy, yuck!!) September here. Where are you located? Heat, especially high heat coupled with high humidity, can be devastating to rabbits. Bucks can go sterile (usually not permanently), does won't take, and the heat adds another layer of extra stress that the rabbit doesn't need.

It's always a booger when you have a doe that you can't (or just really don't want to, we've all been there ) cull because of her lines/type/etc, especially when she's not the best producer. Are you close to the breeder you purchased her from? Perhaps they can offer more insight or even have a foster available if needed. It may, in the future (especially if you plan to stay smaller), benefit you to work with them in breeding schedules if possible. It depends on distance, though. I'm lucky enough to have a very good friend/breeder about 10 minutes away and we try and keep on relatively similar (at least with our sables) schedules just in case. We're both on the smaller side of rabbitries and it's benefited us in a few saved litters. Just a thought, though. I'm really not that familiar with Tans, so I'm not sure about kit size issues...best to talk to the breeder, I think. Or find another breeder to talk to.
Another question...are you planning on showing? If you are, another option may be to replace this doe with one of her better daughters if possible. IMO, that's what I would do even if I weren't showing...like I said before, it's been my experience that these things tend to run in lines, which is unfortunate.

I've found a couple of good articles about breeding/tough issues...the second is in reference to Holland Lops, but it can be used for many other breeds as well.
Barbi Brown's baby article
Holland Lop article
The second article also has some info to help stuck kits, but if you haven't had experience with this before, it's probably best to go to a rabbit savvy vet or breeder so you're not on your own.
Breeding rabbits is just one of those things...sometimes it's incredibly rewarding and sometimes it's so stressful/difficult/frustrating/etc...anyone who has bred rabbits has gone through rough spots. My sister decided she wanted to start raising Dwarf Hotots, so we went to a well known breeder, got some "good" stock and started breeding. We never had a litter survive that wasn't hard-earned...and most were small (like one baby), all fetal giants, or on the wire. It's a lesson hard-learned about researching the breeds and breeders so you know what you're getting...
Anywho, I'll shut up now LOL, let us know how it goes! Best of luck with the little popple. One of my friend's best mothers was a single baby born on the wire on day 36, so there's always hope