Opinions on breeding and buying puppies?

[Carrosaur]

I am very active in the Pit Bull community as I'm looking to get one in the near future! And when I say Pit Bull I mean the American Pit Bull Terrier breed, not the generic term "pitbull" that blankets several similar looking dogs.

In the "Pit Bull world" breeding is not looked down upon as long as the dog is registered with a reputable kennel club (United Kennel Club, American Dog Breeders Association, etc) and is proven in conformation (champion) and in sports or work (agility, weight pull, hog hunting, etc).

How does this forum in particular look at breeding the Great Pyrenees? Should they be champions in the ring? Working dogs? Both?

I bought Moose from a working farm, he is not registered but does have a written pedigree and comes from a very long line of livestock guardian dogs. Many people told me to go to the shelter but you may not necessarily find exactly what you need in a rescue, the good thing about pure bred puppies is that you know the parents, grandparents, etc, you can expect certain temperaments, breed out certain genetic health problems, and many many other pros.

I would love a solid discussion!

 

[Latestarter]

From a simplistic view: The Great Pyr and other working dogs such as the Kangal (Anatolian Shepard) were developed, bred, reared, trained for hundreds and even thousands of years for a sole purpose; they are working dogs. They are not historically "pets". They aren't "wired" to be pets. The reason so many of these dogs are now in rescues is because "designer folks" want "designer dogs" because they are "big" or "powerful" or "pretty" and get these dogs for the wrong reasons, and expect them to be something they were specifically bred NOT to be. It's a shame really... and a terrible waste.

The trouble with rescue dogs is there's no way of really knowing just how messed up they are... or what their background is. That's further compounded by many shelters not allowing these dogs to be placed on working farms, but insist that they be re-placed back into a "pet" setting, where they are doomed to fail... the reason they're in the shelter in the first place.

I think there are more breeders now, that are specifically breeding these animals to be what they were originally bred to be, and specifically breeding for LGD traits. The pups are evaluated for specific traits before being placed with new owners. And they carefully screen prospective buyers to ensure their working dogs are NOT being purchased as a "pet", or by folks who have no idea what they are doing and will ruin the dog.

I wanted an LGD, and when I bought Mel, I knew he wasn't a purebred, but a cross of (IMHO) the top 2 LGD breeds, 50/50 Anatolian/Pyr. He was bred to be a working dog from proven working dog stock (dad pure Pyr, mom pure Toli) and because I wouldn't immediately have animals for him to guard, I purchased him because he was evaluated as a cross between companion and LGD.

So, I believe if you intend to breed pure bred dogs, they should not only conform physically to breed standards, but should also be bred to breed performance standards. A retriever should retrieve, an LGD should BE an LGD. I do NOT believe that an LGD should be bred with a "herding" breed as the two purposes are counter productive. My 2 cents.

 

[Latestarter]

multi post

 

[Pearce Pastures]

The trouble with rescue dogs is there's no way of really knowing just how messed up they are... or what their background is. That's further compounded by many shelters not allowing these dogs to be placed on working farms, but insist that they be re-placed back into a "pet" setting, where they are doomed to fail... the reason they're in the shelter in the first place.

...So, I believe if you intend to breed pure bred dogs, they should not only conform physically to breed standards, but should also be bred to breed performance standards. A retriever should retrieve, an LGD should BE an LGD. I do NOT believe that an LGD should be bred with a "herding" breed as the two purposes are counter productive. My 2 cents.

I very much agree. For my house pets, I rescue young dogs or pups. But for my livestock care, I want to work with that dog as a pup and with my livestock, want to know that the parents were working dogs, and will not gamble on it working it.

And while crossing actual LGD breeds can make for a great working animal, I do not understand why one would want a livestock dog crossed with a herding dog. They are both good animals, have purpose and usefulness, but work in very different ways. It makes as much sense to me as crossing a small terrier with a lab or a greyhound. It kind of defeat the purpose of years of breeding for specific traits.

Show stock and registrations for LDGs? Well, if the show breeder actually is using them as working dogs and is concerned with that ability above all else, registration and show worthiness are just a bonus. I dunno though--my working dogs are working and I can't see that I would have time for them to do their jobs, and train/stay pretty for shows. I would wonder how much experience the dogs actually have with guarding livestock if they are away for shows all of the time.

 

[OneFineAcre]

Kind of related and I think interesting.

A former member of this forum that I haven't seen post in a while but that I follow on facebook just got an Armenian Gampr.

Not sure where it came from but it was outside the US. Last pics they posted it was in LA being checked by vet before continuing down to Alabama.

 

[samssimonsays]

I am for breeding for a purpose, whether that be a healthy breed standard (I do not like the mind set or ethics behind many show ring breeders personally), a strong working dog or those who just want a dog as a pet. I am also one whose heart and soul is in the rescue community.

I am one who likes to know the parents, their temperaments and exactly what I am getting. Our Pyrenees/ Saint Bernard came from a family who wanted to raise several pups up from the beginning for their farm and crossed their dogs. He is a very good dog but NOT LGD at the moment but we didn't get him for that, he is a slow to develop type fella. Our Collie came from working dogs. The lady carefully selected her dogs for generations and it shows. THey are healthy, mild mannered, SMART and oh so gentle. It reflects into our girl. We had planned to breed our collie to another healthy collie to improve the health of the breed along with creating amazing family or working dogs.

Sadly, These two accidentally had puppies even though they were not supposed to and herders/LGD's are a bad mix. BUT, the pups are being placed with good PET families, having no issues in potty training, already know basic commands and so much more. The cross was an accident, the result was some of the best puppies anyone who meets them have ever encountered. Fearless, loving, smart, intuitive, gentle and laid back. Potty trained by 6 weeks old and sitting to command by 7 weeks. Everyone wants one and is asking if we plan on having another litter. The outcome we had was favorable with mom being 60 pounds and dad 150 and the pups are all well mannered, smart and easy going but we will not be putting these mixes into the general population again for the breeds sake and the health of our female. Now that these pups are going to homes it is coming out more and more that these folks are looking for this specific combination of dog.... dubbing it "the perfect dog". I share with them why it is not wise to cross them and why they do not see them crossed often and they understand now.

 

[Carrosaur]

Thank you for the replies!

I agree that in the case of the Great Pyrenees they absolutely need to be proven LGDs. I think I personally will never buy another puppy that is not from proven working lines or champion conformation lines, also never without genetic health testing.

I am for breeding for a purpose, whether that be a healthy breed standard (I do not like the mind set or ethics behind many show ring breeders personally), a strong working dog or those who just want a dog as a pet. I am also one whose heart and soul is in the rescue community.

I am one who likes to know the parents, their temperaments and exactly what I am getting. Our Pyrenees/ Saint Bernard came from a family who wanted to raise several pups up from the beginning for their farm and crossed their dogs. He is a very good dog but NOT LGD at the moment but we didn't get him for that, he is a slow to develop type fella. Our Collie came from working dogs. The lady carefully selected her dogs for generations and it shows. THey are healthy, mild mannered, SMART and oh so gentle. It reflects into our girl. We had planned to breed our collie to another healthy collie to improve the health of the breed along with creating amazing family or working dogs.

Sadly, These two accidentally had puppies even though they were not supposed to and herders/LGD's are a bad mix. BUT, the pups are being placed with good PET families, having no issues in potty training, already know basic commands and so much more. The cross was an accident, the result was some of the best puppies anyone who meets them have ever encountered. Fearless, loving, smart, intuitive, gentle and laid back. Potty trained by 6 weeks old and sitting to command by 7 weeks. Everyone wants one and is asking if we plan on having another litter. The outcome we had was favorable with mom being 60 pounds and dad 150 and the pups are all well mannered, smart and easy going but we will not be putting these mixes into the general population again for the breeds sake and the health of our female. Now that these pups are going to homes it is coming out more and more that these folks are looking for this specific combination of dog.... dubbing it "the perfect dog". I share with them why it is not wise to cross them and why they do not see them crossed often and they understand now.

Good for you for not wanting to breed this combination again. I think breeding two different breeds of different groups is a ridiculous thing and should never, ever, ever, happen. There is absolutely no point.

Now I will not say that ethically breeding pure bred, well mannered, genetically sound puppies takes up room from shelter animals, because honestly if I were not able to get a pure bred dog, I just would not get any dog. Will I continue to foster dogs for the rest of my life? Of course, but I will never intentionally go out and adopt a shelter dog because you just have no idea what you're getting.

 

[Latestarter]

I have considered and checked into adopting, but will never "adopt" a shelter dog for a number of reasons...

Probably the #1 reason is that the cost of doing so is ridiculous. Most are mutts and when all is said and done it's more expensive to "adopt" a shelter animal than it is to buy a reasonably priced pure bred dog... And in most cases you have absolutely no idea what it is that your purchasing, aside from the fact that the original owners had "some problem" with it, or it wouldn't be in the shelter in the first place.

The #2 reason is that you go into the purchase/adoption being treated like an animal cruelty convict and needing to justify your existence to the shelter before they will "allow" you to adopt one of their mutts.

The #3 reason is because virtually all shelters require the animal be spayed or neutered (to prevent further shelter animals from coming into existence - after already putting you through background checks and personal monitoring to make sure you're an acceptable adoption candidate), when this may or may not be in the best interest of the dog or the potential owner.

 

[Southern by choice]

How does this forum in particular look at breeding the Great Pyrenees? Should they be champions in the ring? Working dogs? Both?

There are a few breeders of Pyrs and a few Anatolian breeders that do have working dogs and do show as well. Far and few between, and there are many reasons for this. With the Pyr, most show breeders LOATHE the dogs being utilized as LGD's. They feel LGD owners are cruel, do not care for the dogs etc.
Now, understand there is some merit to their objections. First, the first dogs brought here and the man that brought them theorizes that in order to be good working dogs there should be a hands off, no eye contact etc methodology. It not only is an idiotic method but also has created the issues we see today with these dogs. There are well known breeders today that charge thousands for their dogs that really still have little clue. I will end that there.

I bought Moose from a working farm, he is not registered but does have a written pedigree and comes from a very long line of livestock guardian dogs

Most acquiring LGD's do not care about "papers". That is the pet and show world and for those that either want to impress, think it actually means something, or somehow think they are getting a "better" dog because of it.

Some will import- this baffles me... there are so many fine dogs here in the states. Why? Some want "rare" breeds... then think they will breed and make $ because they are imports. LOL All that has happened is they have brought a breed in with little to no genetic diversity to breed with in the states as well as the rest of the world knows how Americans are... truth is WE do not get the best stock- we get the stock they wouldn't breed. That is the truth! I have seen this for MANY years. There may be a handful that were acquired that actually are great dogs butthat is the exception NOT the rule.

Recently I contacted several Kuvasz breeders. I was hoping to start my search and within 3-4 years bring in a Kuvasz.
We need a shaking my head emoticon here!
I won't go into the details but I can tell you I won't be getting one in the states. The breeders are trying to breed for an "easier" dog... IOW breed out the guardian dog in them. Their idea of what they would place as a guardian dog was laughable- basically it was the "wild" dogs that wouldn't be good pets. There is no understanding of what to even look for. Sadly this is not one or two breeders...

I think there are more breeders now, that are specifically breeding these animals to be what they were originally bred to be, and specifically breeding for LGD traits. The pups are evaluated for specific traits before being placed with new owners. And they carefully screen prospective buyers to ensure their working dogs are NOT being purchased as a "pet", or by folks who have no idea what they are doing and will ruin the dog.

I wanted an LGD, and when I bought Mel, I knew he wasn't a purebred, but a cross of (IMHO) the top 2 LGD breeds, 50/50 Anatolian/Pyr. He was bred to be a working dog from proven working dog stock (dad pure Pyr, mom pure Toli) and because I wouldn't immediately have animals for him to guard, I purchased him because he was evaluated as a cross between companion and LGD.

@Latestarter that is the problem- there are NOT more breeders now that evaluate or assess. They do not evaluate, they do not screen as well as they should.

Personally I loathe when people say they have a "LGD" when they don't. If it is not a LGD breed or a LGD crossed with a LGD breed than it is not a LGD BREED. As well as the LGD is really a "TITLE" earned by the breed. Many refer to their LGD yet it isn't it is some bizarre cross with whatever. The "L" in LGD is the key- LIVESTOCK guardian. Sorry but a 45 pound dog is not a lgd will never be a lgd and is in no way shape or form a LGD breed of any sort. Far too many "accidents" are happening with herding dogs (no offense to those that had accidental breeding) and this is really bad for the lgd breeds.

In the LGD world LGDxLGD= LGD
They are not mutts as in the pet world.
I have Anatolians, Great Pyrenees, and Toli/Pyr crosses.
My best dog a Male Pyr was bred to my best F which was an Anatolian. I planned and waited and wanted this litter for 3 years!
It wasn't just throwing 2 dogs together. They were selected for a reason. Any breeding should be well thought out.

Unfortunately many do breed their LGD's and at one time I supported and tried to help others understand what to look for and would try to teach how to evaluate. I no longer do this. I will as a paid consultant. The "free" advice has really only enabled others to willy nilly breed whatever... there is a great deal of responsibility in breeding dogs- it isn't the same as livestock.

April 2015 I started an article about breeding the LGD, unfortunately I got very sick was hospitalized 2x in a month and time went by... as time went by I added tweaked etc. I have not published the article because at the time there were so many people having litters of pups- ( not necessarily here but other places as well) and I was very concerned that someone may take things I put in the article as a personal attack etc. So I have held the article... and of course we have many more having litters.

The article is 10 pages.

Grouped and categorized.

I could go on and on of course and point out that just because both parents are working doesn't mean every pup will be good.
The majority of dogs that fail are direct results of their owners.
There are many dogs that DESPITE their owners still succeed.

My biggest question is if you cannot problem solve, cannot evaluate behavior and cannot possibly support the person purchasing a pup from you then why the hell would you breed a dog? These people run to big LGD sites and get the worst advice from other ignorant people who also know nothing.

Several people I see on FB are on their 4-5 th dog... because all the ones beforehand "didn't work out"... hmmmm.... then I see the same ignorant way they are training them... with improperly used drags/toggles on each dog they had... and guess what- their new one has it too. SMH!

I guess that is enough... you can see I clearly have a passion for these incredible dogs.

One day I will put the article up...

 

[OneFineAcre]

There are a few breeders of Pyrs and a few Anatolian breeders that do have working dogs and do show as well. Far and few between, and there are many reasons for this. With the Pyr, most show breeders LOATHE the dogs being utilized as LGD's. They feel LGD owners are cruel, do not care for the dogs etc.
Now, understand there is some merit to their objections. First, the first dogs brought here and the man that brought them theorizes that in order to be good working dogs there should be a hands off, no eye contact etc methodology. It not only is an idiotic method but also has created the issues we see today with these dogs. There are well known breeders today that charge thousands for their dogs that really still have little clue. I will end that there.


Most acquiring LGD's do not care about "papers". That is the pet and show world and for those that either want to impress, think it actually means something, or somehow think they are getting a "better" dog because of it.

Some will import- this baffles me... there are so many fine dogs here in the states. Why? Some want "rare" breeds... then think they will breed and make $ because they are imports. LOL All that has happened is they have brought a breed in with little to no genetic diversity to breed with in the states as well as the rest of the world knows how Americans are... truth is WE do not get the best stock- we get the stock they wouldn't breed. That is the truth! I have seen this for MANY years. There may be a handful that were acquired that actually are great dogs butthat is the exception NOT the rule.

Recently I contacted several Kuvasz breeders. I was hoping to start my search and within 3-4 years bring in a Kuvasz.
We need a shaking my head emoticon here!
I won't go into the details but I can tell you I won't be getting one in the states. The breeders are trying to breed for an "easier" dog... IOW breed out the guardian dog in them. Their idea of what they would place as a guardian dog was laughable- basically it was the "wild" dogs that wouldn't be good pets. There is no understanding of what to even look for. Sadly this is not one or two breeders...



@Latestarter that is the problem- there are NOT more breeders now that evaluate or assess. They do not evaluate, they do not screen as well as they should.

Personally I loathe when people say they have a "LGD" when they don't. If it is not a LGD breed or a LGD crossed with a LGD breed than it is not a LGD BREED. As well as the LGD is really a "TITLE" earned by the breed. Many refer to their LGD yet it isn't it is some bizarre cross with whatever. The "L" in LGD is the key- LIVESTOCK guardian. Sorry but a 45 pound dog is not a lgd will never be a lgd and is in no way shape or form a LGD breed of any sort. Far too many "accidents" are happening with herding dogs (no offense to those that had accidental breeding) and this is really bad for the lgd breeds.

In the LGD world LGDxLGD= LGD
They are not mutts as in the pet world.
I have Anatolians, Great Pyrenees, and Toli/Pyr crosses.
My best dog a Male Pyr was bred to my best F which was an Anatolian. I planned and waited and wanted this litter for 3 years!
It wasn't just throwing 2 dogs together. They were selected for a reason. Any breeding should be well thought out.

Unfortunately many do breed their LGD's and at one time I supported and tried to help others understand what to look for and would try to teach how to evaluate. I no longer do this. I will as a paid consultant. The "free" advice has really only enabled others to willy nilly breed whatever... there is a great deal of responsibility in breeding dogs- it isn't the same as livestock.

April 2015 I started an article about breeding the LGD, unfortunately I got very sick was hospitalized 2x in a month and time went by... as time went by I added tweaked etc. I have not published the article because at the time there were so many people having litters of pups- ( not necessarily here but other places as well) and I was very concerned that someone may take things I put in the article as a personal attack etc. So I have held the article... and of course we have many more having litters.

The article is 10 pages.

Grouped and categorized.

I could go on and on of course and point out that just because both parents are working doesn't mean every pup will be good.
The majority of dogs that fail are direct results of their owners.
There are many dogs that DESPITE their owners still succeed.

My biggest question is if you cannot problem solve, cannot evaluate behavior and cannot possibly support the person purchasing a pup from you then why the hell would you breed a dog? These people run to big LGD sites and get the worst advice from other ignorant people who also know nothing.

Several people I see on FB are on their 4-5 th dog... because all the ones beforehand "didn't work out"... hmmmm.... then I see the same ignorant way they are training them... with improperly used drags/toggles on each dog they had... and guess what- their new one has it too. SMH!

I guess that is enough... you can see I clearly have a passion for these incredible dogs.

One day I will put the article up...

Ouch !