Wether does not like his new baby sisters-Do I need to get rid of him?

[glenolam]

I have a small herd - it was two does (one 5 yrs and 1 yearling) and 1 wether (the 5 yr old's son). The wether, Junior, is a year old. My oldest doe (his mom) kidded with twin does a week ago and we've kept everyone separate except under our supervision.

We leave Eloise and the girls alone in their pen for the majority of the day and night. There's plenty of room for them to play, sleep, eat, etc. but I don't yet want to allow them to venture outside of the pen with Junior, Eloise's son from last year, and Fudgie, my yearling doe. Junior is a wether, so he lives with Eloise and Fudgie.

When they are all together and we bring the girls outside to play, Fudgie isn't allowed near them - Eloise makes sure of that. But she lets Junior get as close as he wants, and he starts chasing the kids and head butting them. He's even rammed one in the side. To me it looks like he is purposely hunting them down to hurt or dominate them. One of the girls is clearly afraid of him. Every time we let them all get a little time together she stays under mom's legs if he's near them.

I have seen Eloise head butt Junior recently, but I'm not sure it was to say "stay away from my babies".

When is it safe to let the kids outside the pen when we're not around to watch? Why does it seem like Eloise isn't prohibiting Junior from touching the girls? I'm not worried about the other doe since Eloise protects the girls from her, but Eloise seems to let her son get away with messing with his new sisters.

 

[freemotion]

If she is not protecting them, you need to.....a really hard butt can rupture a rumen or do other serious damage. Wethers don't exist in nature, so the herd dynamics seem to be a bit off. Someone with more experience will jump in....

 

[glenolam]

I am taking on the protective role when it comes to Junior and the girls. I take him by the collar and give him a stern NO, but I'm not sure he's hearing me. He's only rammed or head butted them once, but he's tried many more times - I was there to stop it, thankfully, as those little girls let me know his actions hurt. Luckily both are still as frisky and fun as ever, so his ramming didn't hurt anything that I can see.

I just don't want to let them all out alone until I know either Eloise will defend them or they can withstand the blow.

I'm even considering taking Junior out of the equation....

 

[Just Jayne]

Hey - I just read your posting about the head-butting wether. We have the same thing going on here with the formerly best-friend, the sister, of our new mama goat. Whenever mama goat sees her sister now - just through a fence - her back hair stands on end, and she rushes to the fence where head-butting commences. My husband broke this up the first time it occured, and I've stopped it one other time before it escalated to the skull-cracking business that we saw originally. Now I do not know when I can let mama goat and her kids in with the sister. How long does this go on for?

 

[glenolam]

I have no idea how long it takes, but we've let our herd go together for about an hour or two each day, progressivly longer as each day goes by.

Today they were together and I was happy to see that there wasn't as much violence as in the past. The two doe kids just stayed away from their brother as much as possible.

It also seemed to me that Eloise (the mother) and her son Junior (the wether) were playing today by doing very high head butts (going up very high on their hind legs and coming down hard), but I can't be certain it was playing or if it was a warning message....

 

[Lil-patch-of-heaven]

I surely don't have an answer but I am interested in what others will tell you. I have a bottle baby doeling inmy little herd. She's three weeks old. Also have two yearling does. One lost her kid and the other has a six or seven week old buckling. There is no one to protect Amelia when she's with them and they all pick on her to some degree. I try to keep an eye on them I used to keep her in the house but she seemed much more distressed to be an only goat than to be picked on. It's gotten less after the first couple of days (at least from the does) and the baby knows what a lowered head means and she gets put of the way. She also manages to stay on the fringe out of their notice part of the time, and I've also seen her retreat under the llama. Funny but all the bigger goats are intinmidated by the llama but the tiny doeling Is not. I think she is the llamas favorite too lol. And she follows me around sometimes and still comes inside and plays with the cats. But I'd also like to know if/when it will get better. Butting in the side from a horned goat looks dangerous. I can't pet or feed the baby through the fence because that is what seems to set them to pushing her around. I've never seen domestic goats do the stand up and head crash thing though -- hope I don't see it in my group! Good luck with your doelings!!!

 

[lilhill]

I let new moms with their kids back out with the herd when the kids are 3 or 4 days old. The kids have "hidey holes" available to get away from the other moms.

When goats are away from the herd, sometimes for just a day, and come back into it, the goats will re-establish the pecking order and it lasts until its over. Even if you make them stop fighting or pushing or butting heads, that's only temporary. I just let mine get it over with on their own and they settle down into one happy herd again.

A young bottle baby in with the herd is at the lowest level of the pecking order. It doesn't have a mom to help elevate it to a higher herd status. So they will be targeted to be picked on and needs a way to be able to get away from the older goats if it is going to be in with a herd by itself.

 

[glenolam]

Thanks, lilhill.

My girls are going to be disbudded this afternoon - should I keep them stalled up with their mom until this weekend to avoid any head butting or do you think it's safe to let everyone out all day long together starting tomorrow (or even tonight)?

 

[ksalvagno]

When I disbudded my 2 little ones, I kept them (and mom) separate from the rest of the herd overnight. I was probably being overly cautious but I felt better about it.

 

[Lil-patch-of-heaven]

A young bottle baby in with the herd is at the lowest level of the pecking order. It doesn't have a mom to help elevate it to a higher herd status. So they will be targeted to be picked on and needs a way to be able to get away from the older goats if it is going to be in with a herd by itself.

awwww so that's what's going on with Amelia. Makes sense. Too bad the don't see me as her "mom" since I'm the boss of everyone (at least most days lol). Seriously though I guess she's doing alright then. She keeps out of the way most of the time and can get into small places to hide from them. More and more her "safe spot" is under the llama. The others won't dare approach her there. Maybe that wins her some status after all. She's comfortable with the llama and my young German Shepherd and the others are all afraid of both of them. However to watch them, I kind of doubt it. I see no indication that she is anywhere but at the bottom.

At least she's smart enough to figure out how to deal with it and she wants to be with the herd most of the time.

Thanks for that info.