15 month old filly kicking problem.

[TexasHorses10]

We got a new filly this last Sunday she is 15 months old..Now the old owners had her since birth and treated her like a child. Spoiled her to death..and then one day when they got there daughter a new horse just went and dropped the filly off at the trainers and didn't mess with her til we bought her.....We put our oldest horse with her (20 yr old gelding) we have used him to bond to all the new horses. Anyways I was standing out in the middle of the pen and the filly comes up to me and is standing beside me...well all of a sudden she turns her head to my chest bites me then starts kicking me. She kicked me at least 4-5 times yesterday i have the bruises and the sorness to show it.

We saw that our Gelding (the 20 year old) seemed to be pickin on her alot..so we put him out of the pen and we cought her..We tried some things that would most likely make a horse kick and she wouldn't...We were lightly hitting her flanks,and taking a whip and LIGHTLY hitting her on her hind quarters And still nothing

(in this process the horse was not harmed)

So was she just kicking because she had been picked on all day? or is there somethin shes hiding. Or is it because The old owners spoiled her rotten and she is just takin out her anger of the old owners just dropping her the way they did?

Any way to teach her to stop kicking?

Any help would be greatful...
Thanks

 

[patandchickens]

Honestly, I've dealt with spoiled-as-youngsters horses and they often do have ingrained habits of kicking and/or biting and striking at people when loose, and my best advice would be to build a time machine and go back and not BUY that kind of horse in the first place. They are dangerous and usually neither easy nor fun to retrain.

That not being an option here, if you want to keep the horse, my advice is to wear a helmet at all times when working her (yes, I do mean working with her from the ground, like leading and such) and a flak jacket if you should happen to have one you could borrow, and then DO NOT BE AROUND THE HORSE WHEN SHE IS LOOSE, NOT AT ALL insofar as it can *possibly* be avoided. That is when they are by far the most dangerous. Do not hang out in the paddock with her, do not try to do work with her that way, also do not stand at the fenceline watching her.

What you need to do is invest quite a lot of time into instilling an extremely good basic education in her whilst on a leadrope, and then on a longer leadrope, and then (this is where your delicacy and correctness of judgement becomes critical) a longe line, before really trying to do ANYthing else. (If she were a well-trained riding horse I'd say ride her too, but she isn't and I would not consider trying to start her under saddle til you have fixed her general attitude and education first). You and she (both) need to learn to be able to ahve you lower her head, follow you on a draped lead in any direction, move one foot and one foot *only* at a time in any direction, lead between and over obstacles, etc etc.

If you have trouble catching her safely, an argument can be made for altered turnout arrangements so she is in a paddock or pen that opens directly to her stall or barn aisle; and you may find it useful, and worth the small but nonzero risk, to have her wear a stout non-breakaway halter at all times.

If these things are insufficient and she persists in kicking or striking at you, I would very seriously try to find her another home or even euthanize her. Those behaviors can and do kill. They can be fixed to by the right person but if the right person is not *available*, then, dot dot dot.

Sometimes the main problem with these horses is simply that they are used to mugging people for food. I would recommend never, ever having anything edible on your person when you are around her, and do not ever treat or hand-feed her, period full stop. There are ways of curing a horse of mugging you for food by *using* food, but unless you are pretty experienced with training (in a clicker or trick-training sense specifically) I think it is better not to try following directions for that, but rather to simply do a great deal of GOOD groundwork with the horse. BTW, with a horse that's bitten you in the body in the past, I suggest for women that if you are concerned it may recur it's smart to wear a sportsbra and then several *loose* layers of clothing/jackets over top of it.

Best of luck, be safe,

Pat

 

[freemotion]

I agree with Pat. I'll add one thing...the gelding may be teaching her some well-needed manners, so if he is not going to injure her other than a few scuffed hairs, keep them together. She probably needs to learn to respect other's space and he will likely be the best one to teach her this safely.

I'm not there to see what is happening, though, so use your best judgement on this. I used to turn fresh yearling colts out with the older mares for just this reason. If they were having trouble remembering their manners, boy, those mares would whip them into shape fast!

 

[mully]

I agree with freemotion.... the older horse wants to dominate ans after some fuss the dust will settle and she may find her place ... remember she may see you as a member of the "herd" and is giving you the boss treatment... you may have to earn your place in line. I have a donkey that would try to bite me and one day i got mad and grabbed him by the nech and flipped him to the ground and held him there.... he does not try to bite me any more and now is very sweet.

 

[patandchickens]

Sorry to say, I have not seen much transfer to *people-manners* from having an alpha mare teach HORSE manners to spoiled young horses. Not saying it can't happen, but IME it is not common.

I would also stress that the way to "earn your place" in the filly's mind is through intensive EDUCATION and COMMUNICATION, not through brute-force cowboying, because trying to do the full sized horse version of "got mad, grabbed him by the neck and flipped him on the ground" -- or any other version of trying to physically dominate the horse -- often goes VERY BADLY with this particular kind of horse. (Is not necessarily a great idea with any horse, I mean, but spoiled youngsters can be the worst, as they typically have NO fear of humans and WILL match whatever you do and then some more, and can be quite dangerous)

JME,

Pat

 

[freemotion]

No, it doesn't transfer automatically, but it certainly shortens the time it takes to teach respect for one's space. They move away and react faster after having been beaten on all day by the mares, who aren't the least bit amused by the youngster's antics. They are fast and furious with their punishment.

I reacted the same way a mare would....fast and furious, with a loud and angry squeal. Then total relaxation and acceptance, once the required behavior was obtained. This is the language they understand, and the mares would teach that language to any youngster who was not brought up in a herd environment. When I then "spoke" the same language, I didn't have to say it very many times. The "strike" works best if it is noisy rather than painful. Like a cupped hand that makes a loud pop or a kick with the top of the foot or the flat of the sole on the ribcage, accompanied by a loud mare squeal. Then TOTAL relaxation of the face and body...yours, I mean, the INSTANT the bad behavior stops. No residual anger can remain in the trainer or they will not be effective. The reward to the horse is the acceptance of the trainer, that is signalled by a relaxed demeanor.

Never strike a horse in the face.

 

[()relics]

Let me say first I am a firm believer in "No Hit" training and VERY VERY seldom find it necessary to hit a horse...That said, if any horse that I am riding/working around/training does ANYTHING that I percieve to be intentional with the idea of hurting or scaring me, I Do Not hesitate to Crisply smack the horse across the face with my ever present riding crop. You can't hurt a horse but you want his attention, but never use your hand....A horse is a herd animal. It understands there is a boss and there are underlings. If in a herd, it, as an underling, ever decided to charge up to the "top horse" and attempt to injure it, the lead horse would immediately deal with the challenge with equal or greater force. You want your horses to understand YOU are the lead horse...Once they got that you can depend on them...If they have ANY idea that they may Be The Boss you have a big problem on your hands. biting, kicking, bucking, poor stall manners all equally bad news and are dealt with asap with force enough to let the horse know you meant what you are saying...jmo...but I have to be able to trust all my horses even when they are being "handled" by my kids...

 

[w c]

I think there is a small effect on human interactions from how the horse is in its herd. I don't think it will really create a whole lot of short cuts, and I'm not so sure it is always guaranteed to come without busted legs and busted heads. I don't think putting larger, heavier animals in with smaller ones always comes out as just a few scuffs or a little hair loss.

I would not hit the horse on the face with a riding crop or a hand or anything else. I would stay away from the horse's hind legs, and I would not go in the paddock with her until she has settled down some more.

I don't think horses kick new owners because they are mad at the way the old owner dropped them. I don't think horses think that way.

I think for a horse that turns around and kicks a person, it is probably either just goofy because it's in a new place and has no idea what it's really doing, or the previous owner taught her some stupid pet tricks that sort of backfired. Or it is a difficult horse all on its own.

In any case, I would not get in a paddock with a horse that often kicks. I'd avoid getting in a situation where I could not control the horse's movements, where it could pivot around and kick me. Like when it's loose in a paddock.

I'd get the horse to come over to me in its stall by offering a bucket of grain. While it was eating the grain, I'd say 'goood, goooood girl', and attach a lead shank to its halter, if I knew how to use it, I'd put a chain shank over the horse's nose. Be sure not to wrap the lead shank around your hand. Loop it and put your hand AROUND the loops, not the loops around your hand, even if the loops are large.

I'd be wearing gloves and hard toed sturdy shoes preferably with a hard cap in case I got stepped on. Not sneakers, not running shoes, but laced up sturdy shoes that go over the ankle. Sleeves, long pants, sturdy clothes, and very good gloves.

I'd lead the horse around, staying near its neck and shoulder, not walking out in front of it (ever). I'd walk along briskly and encourage it to walk along quickly and stay up with its shoulder even with my shoulder. If the horse tries to stop, you can turn her quickly left then right, and often they will then walk forward. If you know how to use it, you can use a little longer whip on her rump to keep her moving, or if she's not too big, a figure eight rope around her haunches (takes practice).

I'd teach the horse to respond to WHOA and to a cluck (move forward). I'd say WHOA and stop, and pull on the lead shank til the horse stopped. Eventually the horse will get the idea. To teach forward, I'd cluck, walk forward and tap the horse on the rear with the longer whip. No need to hit hard, just a tap. Repeat if no response. It doesn't need to be painful, just a little annoying, like a pesky fly.

I'd get the horse walking well with me up and down the barn aisle, and then call it quits for the day. I would do something with the horse every single day, but only for five or ten minutes.

Every day I'd do a little bit more handling. I would not try to lead it around in a paddock with other horses or in a big field, I'd start with a small area, like inside the barn, up and down the aisle.

I'd teach the horse to stand quietly when tied up. If it had not been tied up, I'd tie it with something with a little tiny bit of give, and an emergency quick release. Some people leave the horse tied for a long time, and let the horse shift back and forth, walk around and around, thinking it will get tired of that and teach itself to stand still. That works with some really quiet, easy horses, and not with others. I'd see how the horse reacted, I would not assume it would work. I would be careful leaving them tied as if they get too worked up they can kill themselves by falling over backwards and breaking their neck. I would be real careful where I tied, making sure that there was nothing within 20ft the horse could slip on or get caught up on. The saying is 'a horse is an animal looking for an accident'. So clear the area where you work with the horse of implements, lumber, hardware, vehicles, tools, etc. I'd be real careful of the footing. Anything slippery or hard is out. A packed dirt aisle can be ok if not wet or slippery.

I'd teach the horse to stand still for brushing. I'd jerk on the lead shank and say 'WHOA' if it moved, and keep putting it back where I want it to stand. So it gets used to 'this is the place where you stand to be brushed'. Every time it moved its feet, I'd put it back where it was supposed to be. A horse does not understand, 'ok, you can move a little...ok...that's ok too...ok, that time you only moved a little...NO, THAT TIME WAS TOO MUCH'. The horse is going to be thinking, either it is ok to move my feet or not, which is it.

So learns to stand still to have all its feet picked out, brushed all over, ears, eyes cleaned, udder cleaned. Learns to load in a trailer, get out of a trailer.

Then, it is 15 months old. So that's it for training til it's 3 1/2. Just repeat those things and polish and refine them a little. Polishing can be leading her outdoors, around an enclosed paddock (without outer horses diving on her) and then after that, out in the pasture, probably at first with the other horses not all running around loose. But don't rush it. Any time people get in a rush they get hurt.

If you're having trouble or are getting confused as how to train and deal with problems that pop up, get help from a good professional trainer.

 

[mistee]

I worked w/ a beautiful gray TB on the track one time,, stunning horse.. Well,, he was as arnery as they come,,lol.. He was prone to heal scratches and needed ointment and bandaging somtimes depending how bad they were. It was almost a constant prob for him that even got infected easy.... Well after my 5th time getting kicked while treating him I lost it and I mean LOST IT!!!! I didn't hit him but boy did I yell and scream on and on for about 10 min right in his face..... Well, the poor guy must have thought I lost on grips on reality cause after that he never tried to kick me,, never reared while walking on lead,, bit at me while tacking,, nothing.. He was the perfect gentlemen after that... I use to dread having to do anything w/ him to him being my FAVORITE horse,,, god I miss him..He still pulled his tricks w/ others,,,lol... They didn't believe me that screaming at him would stop him,,lol..

 

[FlipFlopFarmer]

you better assert dominance fast, spoiled youngsters are the worst. I am not pro beating by any means, but you are ALOT smaller than the horse, so make your presence known. My advice is to purchase or rent a trainer that you respect ( clinton anderson is my favorite)'s dvds and watch, then apply. Always always remeber, just like with kids, a tired colt is a well behaved colt. You cant ride, but you can lunge, drive, teach alot of commands, and make the colt work and sweat!