2-day doeling-knees bending out - followup question on doeling post 19

[Bunny-kids]

I hope someone has an idea. I have a 2- day old doeling , high % Nubian, twin was buckling, dam is yeArling. Birth was easy and all looked good until this morning. I thought she was injured, one front knee was weak and bowed out and not bearing mch weight, then I saw the other is doing it as well. She seems a little weak. She was quite a bit smaller than buckling but stood and nursed within minutes and strengthened. I was afraid dam might have been mineral deficient before kidding because her front legs bowed in a little the last few days, but she might have just been the weight. Knees still looked bowed in on dam but she's moving around very well. She was ALWAYS eating before kidding, and is still voraciously hungry. Eyelids are a good color, just slightly paler than perfect. Dam has access to loose mineral. I gave her her own when I noticed her legs and she did ear quite a bit. Doe is not cleaning these kids as well as my older doe does and there's a tiny reddish smear on doelings backside. The poops were normal kid poops yesterday. Not seen one today. Buckling is strong. Doeling seems hungry. I don't vaccinate but never had problems beyond an infection needing penicillin a few years ago in one kid, and having to treat for worms. I keep a lot of animals that do get in their pasture -- goats, llamas, chickens, geese, Muscovy, ducks. Rabbits are in cages in separate yard. Everyone is and has been healthy otherwise. Goats all came from tested closed herds, and I don't bring new ones in. Not sure what else to tell? Does have free access to grass hay and water, pasture has been greening for a while, and I give them a mixed grain sweet feed 2x a day. Free access to loose goat mineral.

Thanks if anyone can help. This is my only doeling this year and I really want to help her.

 

[Queen Mum]

I would give that kid some BoSe. Sounds like she is a little weak. The vet can give you a shot for her. It only takes about a 1/4 cc. While you are at it, give Mama and the other baby some as well. They all sound like they could use some. They could probably do with some B vitamins to boost them up a bit as well.

 

[ksalvagno]

I second the Bose shot. It is selenium. For full size goats, I use 1/2 cc though. I would also watch them closely and make sure she is nursing. I would get that BoSe shot in her ASAP. I have seen miraculous things with just giving a BoSe shot.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Thanks so much. I'll head over to the vets after lunch. Any suggestion as to type of b-vit and dosage? I have human liquid sublingual b-complex, and I have b capsules w/intrinsics for a large dog with pancreas insufficiency. If I have anything I bought for goats it's going to be 2 years old, when I was battling worms. (one good thing about a super-drought year, no worms last year).

Thanks so much. Kid is still standing to nurse just fine, btw. I've seen BoSe work miracles, so hopefully that is what she needs. (and I apologize if I sound like I'm not thinking ... I'm not. I've had almost zero sleep for over ten days with watching for kidding. One doe gave me ZERO signs and the another kept giving signs but not kidding, so I've been traipsing out to the barn all night for a while now)

Thanks!

 

[Queen Mum]

DOE CODE - keeps you up, deprives you of sleep and makes your mind wander. Then when you are about to pull out your hair in frustration, they have the kids when you are in the bathroom and laugh at you for worrying.

 

[Bunny-kids]

LOL you are right on that one!

When the first doe kidded, I had checked on the goats first thing in the morning. I don't release them from their stalls until I get everyone moved through the gates and into the right pasture, because otherwise the goats will shove through and I'll have a 2-hour (ok, not that long, but it feels like it!) circus on my hands getting everyone where they belong. So I left the goats to go feed the geese (the Pilgrims get put in the pasture to keep them separate) and move the llamas in. While I waited for the geese to eat, I fed the rabbits. By that time, the geese were ready to go, so I moved them and closed the gate, then went to release the goats. When I opened their shed, I heard that unmistakeable little "mmmaaaaa!!!!" and I looked in the stall where I expected the one to kid first ... no kids. The OTHER stall had two kids stumbling around! I missed it.

And the second doe? Who should have kidded first. She finally had EVERY sign of kidding and I KNEW she couldn't possibly go any longer (haha, I'd been thinking she'd kid for over a week!) but her bag was really tight and her ligaments were nowhere to be found, so I checked her at least every hour. I looked out and saw her lying down, which was unusual for her, so I went to the bathroom, washed my hands, put on my boots, grabbed my stuff and ran out there .... and as I got to her, I saw her standing up and two little wobbly shapes standing beside her.

I missed both of them. After losing ALL sleep, thinking "they might need me".

Goats can drive you crazy, LOL. Hopefully I'll have SOME measure of sanity back soon.

 

[Queen Mum]

Sanity? What's that? Oh yeah, it's G.A.S.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Darn, I messed up. At least I didn't go the other way.

I was going to go between the 1/4 and 1/2 cc because she's small. The other kids all weigh around 8-9 pounds and she's only 5 pounds. Somehow my brain did the math wrong and I ended up giving her .15 cc

Is it safe to give her a separate dose? Should I see if she improves?

It was a run-around. The vet is a long drive, and when I got there, he had been called out. Then they found out they didn't have any selenium. (After I called to make sure I could come get some.) They put me in touch with another vet, who is actually my pet vet, and he had a bottle he had ordered in for someone that never got it, or whatever. So he wanted to sell me the whole bottle. It was only $15 so I got it. And in telling me what to do, he was going with sheep doses, which apparently are way different from goat doses.

Anyway, somewhere in there I got confused, and ended up thinking I'd go with 1/2 of the 1/4cc ... which is why she ended up with .15 (just over 1/4).

I'm debating giving it to the whole herd, though I take my life in my hands probably doing the buck. I do have another doe that I couldn't get bred last year, so that may be her problem. And she was badly disbudded before I got her and knocked a scur off today. Always something, isn't it?

 

[Queen Mum]

.25 cc for the kid. Is what you would normally give the baby. You give more for the does. .15 cc's should be OK, though. Don't sweat it. And YES, it would be good to give some to the whole herd. Bucks included. Remember the info below is for meat goats and smaller goat babies require a smaller dose.

BoSe and MuSe - Vet prescriptions are required for both products. ( MuSe should not be used with goats; it is too strong and is a horse medication. Use BoSe with goats.) Injectable medication for selenium deficiency. Since selenium deficiency exists at different levels throughout the United States, it is critical to follow your veterinarian's directions on the usage of these products, as well as supplemental loose minerals containing selenium. See page 541 of Goat Medicine, by Dr. Mary Smith, for a map of the United States indicating areas of selenium deficiency. Most of the East Coast, down to Florida and westward through the Great Lakes region, plus the West Coast, including California and parts of Nevada and Idaho, are selenium deficient to different degrees. Selenium deficiency shows itself in goats most often in the form of weak rear legs in kids. Older goats look "pathetic," don't put on weight, have weak legs, and generally stay in poor condition and poor health. Selenium deficiency causes Nutritional Muscular Dystrophy (White Muscle Disease).

Selenium is toxic at low dosages, and the dosing margin of safety is narrow. The addition of selenium to feed is controlled by US law. In some areas, producers only need to provide loose minerals containing selenium. In other regions, selenium injections are necessary. When injections are required, they are usually given at birth and again at one month of age (one-half cc IM). Pregnant does usually receive injections four to six weeks before kidding, and bucks usually are vaccinated twice a year. Adult dosage of BoSe is 2-1/2 cc per 100 lbs bodyweight given IM. It is critical that producers understand that selenium supplements must be determined and supervised by your veterinarian because selenium levels vary widely across the USA.

This website also has tons of information on dosing of other goat meds. Very useful website.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Thanks.

I'd contacted the county extension, but they never got back to me. I guess they don't expect to be asked about selenium levels locally. I didn't want to overdo it, since it can be toxic?

I do think they does and kids are in need of it though. I hope the doe whose front knees just bowed in will get better. I hadn't realized she needed her OWN loose minerals in HER stall, I guess??? Or else she finally decided it tasted good.

Anyway ...

Yes, I'll probably go ahead and do the does and kids then. Other kids are heavier. I'll watch the doeling and see if she's better tomorrow I guess, and decide if I should give her more. If they are getting more in a month, i may just wait.

It's not that I don't WANT to give any to the buck. Something snapped in his little brain about 6 weeks ago. He was a bottle baby, very sweet. I think I raised him right, as in I taught him to respect me and stay at a distance when he's being pushy, but I scratched on him and gave him treats. Didn't mistreat him at ALL. Never played games pushing on his horns, etc.

He started getting pushy with me, and not long ago, he ran past me, did a quick stop, and did his very best to jab his horns into my stomach. He aimed for me. I stopped him (I kinda saw it coming) and ended up getting only a bruise and not a puncture. Well, then he shoved me into the fence, and held me there. He outweighs me, and whatever reason he decided to act that way ... I had to call someone to help get him off me cuz I couldn't let go of his horns to open the gate and escape. I had to move him to a slightly smaller pen so I could get around safely, and he's in there with a little shed and a trough for water, and I bring him hay daily. He runs up and begs for treats as usual, but I can't go in with him. He's FINE with everyone else, though now I'm afraid to let anyone go in with him because I don't want to be responsible for anyone getting hurt. But he has it in for me.

I'm debating what to do with him. I was going to replace him in 2 years anyway. But he is a very fine buck, beautiful multi-color with spots, and from a line of great milkers. I love his kids. Still ... if that attitude is at all hereditary ... sigh ... he may be barbecue soon. For now he's behind a VERY stout fence, and I keep my phone with me at all times. If I owned a cattle prod, I'd take that too. He's got the wether in there with him, and they do fine together. The wether was my buddy though, and I miss him.

So I honestly don't know if I'll dose the buck. I'm not sure I safely can. Maybe have him snarfing down some raisins or something and I jab him in the thigh, if that works.