2yo male Pyr suddenly attacking goats!!! Need help/advice

[MamaBlu]

Hi I am new here but I am having the worst problem with my Pyr, he is 2 and is not neutered.

In Feb of this year we had a terrible tradgedy, we had a double barn fire that killed all but 3 of my goats (14 died) and my daughters calf died as well.

We moved to a new farm and everything seemed fine with the dog (he was tied up away from the fire and actually had been for about a year because he started running away) when we moved here, we live in a very private property far from others, we decided to let him stay with the goats to see if he would be ok with them. It was great no issues.

We started letting them roam because they stay close and don't wander from sight.

A few weeks ago the dog started singleing out my alpha buck, I have 2 alpine bucks and a little boer female, he started targeting him and attacking him to the point I had to tie him back up close to thier barn so he can scare things away at night but not get to the goats per say.

He got to him again tonight but worse than ever, he tore the goats ear in half (he basically bit the tip about 3 inches off) but his neck up pretty badly he was bloody and scared. This is my BIG BUCK he is not afraid of anything, he is freaking out staying right on top of the little girl to protect her but he keeps bleating all the time like the rut bleat but not so intense.

I can't figure this out I don't want to get rid of the dog but I'm afraid he's going to kill my best breeding buck.

Anyone ever heard of this kind of behavior change before?

Maybe moving, the fire, and being with them all the time drove him mad?

Thank you for any help

 

[Latestarter]

Greetings from the Front range in Colorado ! I'm sorry this subject has brought you to us, I'm going to tag probably the best LGD person on the site and hope she can help you: @Southern by choice I'm sure she'll have a lot more Q's for you, but if anyone can help, she's the one. I wish you the best with this situation.

 

[babsbag]

I agree with @Latestarter. Is the goat being aggressive towards the dog? No excuse for his behavior though...but just asking. Hopefully Southern will be on here soon. I know the excruciating pain you are experiencing, was in a similar position a few years ago...we put the dog down as he was showing aggression towards me as well as the goats.

 

[samssimonsays]

This is horrible. I am very sorry to hear this has happened! @Southern by choice is a very awesome knowledge source in this sort of thing.

In my personal experience, a traumatic event such as the fire killing so many or a move alone can trigger bad behavior but usually it is soon after the event, not just fine and then suddenly snapping. But that is my personal experience with my personal dogs of the non LGD breeds.

 

[Southern by choice]

Welcome to BYH
Very sorry to hear about your loss through the fire.

I have read and re-read and some things are unclear ( could be I am just tired-sick child) so first I will quote ask a question and then ask more.
Because there are so many reasons as well as variables more info is needed.

We moved to a new farm and everything seemed fine with the dog (he was tied up away from the fire and actually had been for about a year because he started running away) when we moved here

At what age did you get the dog?
Where was he raised?
I am not understanding- was h e tied up at the old barn/place also?
You mention him being tied up for a year because of running away.
Can you give a time line for the above?

we decided to let him stay with the goats to see if he would be ok with them. It was great no issues.

How long of a span was this? A day two weeks, a month? 24/7?

We started letting them roam because they stay close and don't wander from sight.

Is there any fencing?

A few weeks ago the dog started singling out my alpha buck,

How long was he in with the goats before this started?
Is the alpha buck new?
Has the dog been around and experienced mating?
Has the buck (being in rut) been aggressive or nasty toward the dog?

I had to tie him back up close to their barn

What does he do when tied?
Do the goats have access to him when tied?

He got to him again tonight but worse than ever, he tore the goats ear in half (he basically bit the tip about 3 inches off) but his neck up pretty badly he was bloody and scared.

Did he just run after and attack?
Was the buck doing anything with the does?
Is the dog "protecting" the does?
What did you witness?

Maybe moving, the fire, and being with them all the time drove him mad?

The key here is "being with them all the time"
That is what LGD's do and are bred for. Most good sound LGD's will practically kill themselves to get to their goats- as they HATE being apart from them.

There are many factors as I stated before.
Some dogs will not be LGD's. Usually there is a long list of reasons why they fail. But that isn't for now.

 

[bemba]

Is it like in prey drive attack or aggro competition attack?

 

[MamaBlu]

[QUOTE="Southern by choice, post:


At what age did you get the dog?

He was a puppy of our old Pyr. She was stolen from our property when the pups were about 4 months old. He was the only one we kept.

Where was he raised?

With us

I am not understanding- was h e tied up at the old barn/place also?
You mention him being tied up for a year because of running away.
Can you give a time line for the above?

Yes when he was about a year old he kept running off and roaming and the neighboring farms complained so we had to tie him out, we spent a lot of time with him and he was tied near the goats but not with them.


How long of a span was this? A day two weeks, a month? 24/7?


Is there any fencing?

Perimiter fencing only and just barbed wire right now, the animals could get out if they wanted to.

I'm afraid to just let him off, I'm afraid he will run off and get lost in the woods, our property backs up to a 16,000 acre state park.


How long was he in with the goats before this started?

He was with them in a very large fenced area for about 2 months before it started.

Is the alpha buck new?

No he's been with me since birth and before the dog.

Has the dog been around and experienced mating?
Has the buck (being in rut) been aggressive or nasty toward the dog?

The dog has been around rutting bucks, the bucks are in rut, however they have been since August probably.

Yes the buck has been aggressive to the dog a bit he was defending the little girl goat, the dog I guess started a territorial battle over the girl goat, silly since she's a goat lol but anyway he started peeing on her like the Bucks did so every time a buck peed on her he came and did it too this enraging the big huge buck and making him head butt the dog in the side.

So that spurred those first attacks and they were seperated from each other. They could all still see each other though.

What does he do when tied?
Do the goats have access to him when tied?

He is good and happy most of the time out there, he is very close to them, he doesn't bother them if they don't bother him per say.


Did he just run after and attack?
Was the buck doing anything with the does?
Is the dog "protecting" the does?
What did you witness?

He got close through a hole that the goats or he apparently made in the fence, he will run after and attack that one goat only he will chase him down and try to kill him if I let him. The buck was trying to put the doe to bed and go in to bed himself into thier barn/house when the dog figured out he could get to him I guess and he just went After the buck.

The buck doesn't back down though because of the doe.



And his mama was an awesome LGD she was a rescue from a horrible man who had been breeding her and when he thought she was used up he was giving her away, she turned out to be a great dog. His father was the Pyr from down the street that lived with cattle and he was a really good hairs dog as well.

Thanks

 

[Southern by choice]

I won't be much help here but there are a few things, given the brief description, that I see as very problematic.

One- although I understand why you have had to tie him up, having a LGD that is tied up all the time is ineffective, promotes bad behaviors and does not allow for the proper growth development of the LGD. LGD's learn to bond and respect the goats by being with them full time.

Two- I believe all LGD's have a right to protect themselves from an aggressive goat, sheep or whatever livestock.... however protecting oneself is different from attacking. The dog should lower head and move on to show submission to the goats.

Three- the dog should not be peeing on the does- ever. The one thing LGD's do may be to pee over the spot the doe peed but not on her to mark her.

Four- The buck seems to feel the need to protect the doe which tells me the dog isn't trusted by the livestock as there has been no bond or order established.

Five- The dog is being referred to as a LGD however he has not been brought up to be a LGD. Those early introductions as far as the dog learning all respect and understanding it's place has been bypassed. Now at his age he was turned loose for 2 months but those key things weren't developed so he thinks he is at the top of the order and doesn't have a clear understanding of his job.

Six- the sign of a good LGD is where the dog gains the trust of the livestock. Always respecting them, turning, lowering, moving away- all things that build confidence and trust with livestock- eventually the livestock accepts the guardian and the bond is strong.

IMO a different type of guardian may be better in your situation. A donkey or better- a llama may be more beneficial.
Or you could separate the buck and allow the dog to be with the does and work on the marking issue.

When a guardian breed has been challenged and doesn't have that clear understanding the issue can escalate and this buck may now be viewed as a permanent enemy. Once that happens you really cannot undo it. More often than not there will be an ongoing battle til one "wins". My bet would be on the dog.

My guess is one reason this may have become a bigger issue is once rut started it isn't really the rut but more of when the buck does start breeding the does. Some dogs when they are not mature or accustom to this view this as aggression toward the doe and many dogs go frantic and want to go after the buck in order to protect the doe. Your time frame is about right for this to happen. Also, it is all about the doe. Very good possibility that your dog in his immaturity, lack of exposure, etc has decided this buck is "hurting" the doe.

Rut will be over soon and the does bred so you could just see how he does when the buck's testosterone levels are down and see if there is peace but he should be completely supervised.
If you have to tie the dog it would be best to rehome him with full disclosure of behavior toward the buck... to a fenced farm. Many farms do not run bucks with their does and seeing as how he is protective of the does he may do just fine and turn out to be a good LGD in the end.

 

[MamaBlu]

Thank you so much for all that insight

I think your right he just never socialized properly even when he was growing up with the goats he didn't show an interest in them he wanted to be with us more than them and he was allowed free roam of our old farm for a long time, it was fenced until the county decided to redo the roads and smashed a huge portion of the fencing, we started tiring our goats out so they wouldn't wander and the dog just lost interest in them at that point, I always thought he felt they were safe.

Also we had our breeding bucks seperated from everyone else in thier own pen, all my does and thier under 1 year offspring both male and female stayed in another pen at night. All were tied out far enough from each other to not get tangled but close enough to see each other.

This was also when he started wandering, perhaps looking for another herd to guard or a girlfriend.

We also have another dog a lab mix that was a rescue dog but she was used to herd cattle, I thought it was weird to use a lab for that but she was also starving and abused they beat her with a stick. Anyway she keeps the goats where they are supposed to be during the day if she is outside with them, she runs off chasing rabbits or whatever but she is good at keeping them in the fences. Not to much of a guard though that I've seen.

Now I was thinking of letting the Pyr off with her, even if they run off I was thinking he would just stay with her and follow her home.

She might also be able to protect the goat from him because she wouldn't let anything harm them so maybe she could teach him what to do?

Is it possible to re train my Pyr or is he going to be to old and not submissive enough?

I had to seperate my other younger buck (1year younger than alpha) because the alpha won't leave him alone he would chase him off anyway so I figured I might as well put him up just in case.

I only have the 3 goats left right now all of the rest died in the fire. So taking the Bucks from the doe would be bad she would be alone and she screams and cries if she's away from them like if she gets left eating and they walk around the barn and she realizes they are gone oh man it's like someone's killing her lol.

The younger buck seems ok away for now but I think he's just tired of being butted and chased off.

I need to get more goats that's my number one thing as soon as I can get more.

Anyway thanks again for everything

 

[Southern by choice]

IMO it sound like the big mature buck is the biggest issue.
So sad about your loss. What an awful thing to go through.

I think your boy may do fine with other goats but this one buck sounds like it may be a hate/hate relationship at this point.

I f you let the lab and the pyr run together think a bigger picture- You say the lab won't let the pyr go after the buck but reality is a Lab is no match for a pyr. If the pyr is so inclined and the lab challenges it the lab will lose. And it won't be pretty.

Quite possible for the pyr to become a good LGD. I do think a paddock would be best. Perhaps when you have kids or start adding in young stock he could be with them, the relationship could start off on a better note. LGD's really need to have purpose, know their purpose and that must be groomed, so to speak.