AI or buy a bull?

[redtailgal]

lol, It does smell worse than it tastes. But I am bad to forget to wash my ear..........makes for an uncomfortable moment when hubby snuggles up.

I've taken alot of interest in this thread because I've seen alot of folks going to AI, and some (even in my area) are very adamant that its the only way, lol.

I appreciate your breaking it down. I can see why you've made that decision for your farm. I'm very fortunate to have the ideal set up for live cover on the "ladies" and am able to work the situation for added profit instead of added cost, so I'll just stick to what I'm doing.

I can definately understand using AI for genetics, it would be very costly to buy high dollar bulls. With AI, you have the option to have multiple top line sires each year. But, we just keep regular old registered polled herefords for meat and a little income ( we have about 40 cow/calf pairs right now). We expect nice lines on our bulls, but also put alot of consideration into the personality/disposition. A bull that tears up stuff gets the grinder pretty fast, I have no patience for that.

We've been rewarded with a pretty much self sufficient herd. Live cover for breeding, pasture birthing that rarely needs assistance, and very little parasite or illness. We've got them in enough pasture with buffering pasture lots between neighbors so that fences are only torn up by the deer.

The breakdown on Shutup..........4500 purchase price. Pasture cost nothing as it was old land and fertilizer is free except for the fuel needed to earn and spread. Hay was paid for by our contract hay sales. Vaccinations etc............about 10$ per year. Being just a plain old cattleperson, we dont insure the bull......just a common farm here, not a big operation. Yearly cost is no more than 300$ counting the grain that is supplemented in the winter.

However, this bull brings in 2300$ per year in lease agreements, keeping us out of the red.

It seems to me, that a persons intent, the layout and versatility of the land/farm etc, and the number of cattle play a huge role in deciding if AI is the best way to go or not. Those of us who are not doing elite breeding have to look at things at a different angle, I guess. We each do what works best for our unique situation.

If you've mentioned it before I missed it and I apologize, but what breed of cattle do you have?

 

[WildRoseBeef]

I'm still playing around with the idea of going AI or just having a bull if/when I decide to start a cow-calf operation. I completely understand that if I only have a few cows it's not worth the added costs or labour to look after a $2k or $6k bull, but then again I don't have to go about the added labour of making watching for heat signs, syncing them, watching for heat again, then doing the actual procedure.

The other problem is I'm not exactly comfortable around bulls. Heck no one should, really. I also don't like the fact bulls will tear up a pasture, fences, etc., especially if I want to implement some sort of rotational grazing system on the farm.

Then there's the other option of not going cow-calf and simply buying and selling stockers to graze the pastures for the summer months and sell them in the fall, not having any over winter. The land and quality of the grass around here is suited for stockers and dairy, not beef cow-calf, at least not the type of beef cows that I'd like to have (i.e., the smaller framed, British-type cows). Then again there's still plenty of cow-calf producers around here yet, a number that have british-type cows (there are about three or four registered Hereford breeders just a few miles of me as the crow flies).

Anyway, sorry for the hijack and ramblings, just thought I'd throw that out there while this thread is still active.

 

[kfacres]

RTG: In the thousands of heifers and cows that I have AI'd, I've come to the conclusion that the poop doesn't taste nearly as bad as it smells. All in what you get used to. Also, having the proper facilities and equipment is very important.

As to cost of AI vs bulls---in this area, you would be very lucky to find a decent bull for less than $5000. Figuring that a bull can cover 30 cows in a season, that figures out to about $166 / pregnancy. Figure that this bull will be used for 3 years, brings the cost down to $55.00 in bull outlay. Then, there's feed, insurance and vet costs. These would conservatively run around $1000/year, so you can add another $11 per pregnant cow. Brings the total to around $66/cow bred by this bull. Consider that he will be 92% effective, and you get $71.00 per pregnant cow.

AI costs---Semen at $20, labor at $8, and supplies at around $10 brings you to $38. Consider that you will get around 70% bred, brings the cost / pregnancy at $54.00.

Figure in the added value of using elite genetics, which are highly proven---??? for a value to that. I do know that in my own herd the AI calves are superior to the ones from the cleanup bulls, and the AI females are almost always my best cows.

There is also the safety factor, and that's another thing that I cannot put a value on. I do know that my own cleanup bulls are terribly destructive to the feeders, fences, shelter, etc. I have been very lucky that I've never had a mean bull of my own, but I have neighbors who have been severely injured in the past by "gentle" bulls. And there's also the advantage of having a pretty good idea of when a particular heifer will be calving. Synchronization also enables one to choose the timing of calving quite accurately, and that's another convenience thing that's hard to put a value on.

I have many customers who breed 100+ heifers each year to proven calving ease AI bulls. If they were to buy calving ease bulls to breed all of them natural service, they would need 4 (yearling bulls should be limited to 25 or less). Figuring $5000 per bull, that's $20,000. They can breed all these heifers AI once through, spend $5400, and only need 1 or 2 cleanup bulls.

You do the math.

My PDF is actual MATH studies which talk and compare the exact things you posted-- in a very similar mannor...

like I said, i have no way to post it.

Wait, i might have an idea.

 

[kfacres]

here we go folks:

http://kfacresshorthorns.webs.com/bull comparison PDF.pdf

Now, first and foremost, I want to let you know the basis was brought on by the article I read in the Select Sires mailer that I get.

SO- with that in mind- obviously the numbers will be slued to help sell more semen. Honestly, the only numbers that I do not find realistic, are the $15 semen, which is not very common in most sectors of the cattle industry-- for most people-- especially those on this board.

Now, I did go ahead and make the excel worksheets at the end- using the exact same formulas that Select Sires used, you'll notice that most are identical. On each of the 4 runs, i tweaked one thing to make them just a little more different than the rest, and more realistic to the average cattle person. it may be best to print it off, and study them side by side-- especially if you don't catch the sticky notes I left on each sheet. I don't know very many herds that only have one bull either-- one usually for cows- and one for heifers.

Now, with this in mind- the only way i can figure AI semen to pay-- is buy cheap semen, and run zero bulls. The only way I can get using only bulls to pay-- is only feed the bull for half the year-- meaning you need a partner on him.

In almost every case- it will not pay to AI and use bulls, unless you have larger than average cow herds, or can get really good bulls bought cheap---

 

[redtailgal]

I cant get the PDF to load here, but it's rainy and my internet is being a little snarky.

sigh......thanks for posting it. I'll try to load it again tomorrow. I'd like to see what it has to say.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

I cant get the PDF to load here, but it's rainy and my internet is being a little snarky.

sigh......thanks for posting it. I'll try to load it again tomorrow. I'd like to see what it has to say.

It worked for me. Had to save it to my hard drive to look over again tomorrow.

 

[redtailgal]

I cant get the PDF to load here, but it's rainy and my internet is being a little snarky.

sigh......thanks for posting it. I'll try to load it again tomorrow. I'd like to see what it has to say.

It worked for me. Had to save it to my hard drive to look over again tomorrow.

show off.

My poor old pathetic piece of junk laptop has been trying to open it for the past 10 minutes. The M button isnt working right either, I have to BANG it to get an "M". Earlier today, the B button flew off and hit me in the nose.

What this all means is that if I cant get it to load, you'll just have to re type it all up in a post. HA!

(and I just ordered a new laptop......my dream computer. still twitching from the price tag)

edited to add: You got lucky Wildrose. It loaded........I can see part of it, it takes FOREVER to scroll thru it. But I've got it.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover=)]

Iiiiiinnnnnttttttttteeeerrreessstttinngg....... RTG doesnt have a good computer!!

I don't have cattle, nor would my father let me (1 acre of land, 2 sheep barely fit!) but this is quite interesting.... I have a Q tho~

Okay, so RTG you Own Shut Up, (Love the name BTW) would it be the same costs and expenses and such, to be one of the leasers? (i.e. around the same price to have Shut Up cover the cows & heifers)

 

[kfacres]

I cant get the PDF to load here, but it's rainy and my internet is being a little snarky.

sigh......thanks for posting it. I'll try to load it again tomorrow. I'd like to see what it has to say.

It worked for me. Had to save it to my hard drive to look over again tomorrow.

show off.

My poor old pathetic piece of junk laptop has been trying to open it for the past 10 minutes. The M button isnt working right either, I have to BANG it to get an "M". Earlier today, the B button flew off and hit me in the nose.

What this all means is that if I cant get it to load, you'll just have to re type it all up in a post. HA!

(and I just ordered a new laptop......my dream computer. still twitching from the price tag)

edited to add: You got lucky Wildrose. It loaded........I can see part of it, it takes FOREVER to scroll thru it. But I've got it.

If you can't get it to open-- I'd be glad to email it.

 

[Cricket]

I have a heifer that I'm planning on trying AI on in a few months, so not against it by any means, but don't believe that AI is the only way to go. I also think that the costs incurred by having a bull don't have to be astronomical.

If I buy a bull calf for $10.00 (the going price around here right now for a Jersey), $75.00 for milk replacer, $50. for disbudding, vac. (Misc ), I grain about 1.5-2.lbs per day or $12.00 per month for grain and butcher at 18 months--2 years, there's no way I'm going to have a $4500. bull. It seems different to me if you're not breeding for genetics but just to keep your cow in milk and have your own beef (even if it's a hamburger bull).

If I get a bull calf in Sept., he should be ready to breed by July at the latest, bringing the cow in in April. Then keep him another few months to be sure she settled. They aren't apt to get truly nasty much before a year. I can either keep him until he gets 'the look', or butcher him young or sell him. Like RTG, my land doesn't owe me a thing after 30 years. If we didn't have grazing animals, we'd have to brush hog or have the fields go to woods in a few short years. I don't count fuel costs, as we'd spend the same on fuel for brushhogging. Guess you could count the baler twine as added expense.