Anatolians as LGDs and training problems

[Ridgetop]

Sentry is not allowing Buford to get big and realize yet that he can take him. He is impressing in Buford that he is the Alpha. Unfortunately, Buford is a male Anatolian and eventually will not back down. You are smart to separate them now before Buford decided to kill Sentry.

 

[Ridgetop]

Haven't had much to discuss here since Ozel is doing so well and behaving almost perfectly. In respect to the sheep, she is behaving perfectly. She has not eaten any more hoses but did get hold s the extension cord i the barn and completely chewed it into small pieces. I am glad I hiked the extension cord from the trailer to the house up on garden hooks designed for bird feeders. It kept that cord (which is powering the freezer in the trailer) from getting chewed. Today the men pulled that trailer out and finished loading it for a trip to Texas. I will have to go check the extension cord and make sure they replaced it up on the hooks and the hook in the porch rafter to protect it.

I talked to Erick Conard today and he told me about a training situation. A woman who has talked to him several times about her dogs and their behavior called to tell him that her male Anatolian was giving her "mean looks", looking at her in a way that made her uncomfortable. he was worried that the dog might decide to attack her. Erick had her describe the situation and she told him that she had tried to teach the dog to jump into the pickup bed last summer, but he would only put his feet up on the tailgate. The other day she dropped the pickup gate and the dog jumped into the truck bed. She ordered him out and scolded him. He kept jumping into the truck bed and she kept ordering him out until she got very angry. She ordered him to go to his doghouse following him and screaming at him the whole way. She told Erick that his doghouse was his "safe space". Then she was still so mad at the dog she opened the top of his doghouse and continued to yell at him and scold him for at least another 15 minutes or so.

Erick and I discussed the situation. We know what was going on in the dog's mind. This was a training issue that was mishandled.

I but would like to invite comments about this. Anyone have any thoughts about the actions of the dog and owner in this situation - the dog's actions, the owner's actions, why those actions occurred, and what should have happened. Please post responses and discuss.

Then I will tell you what Erick told her was happening.

 

[Mini Horses]

Personally, I'd have given good boy and scratches for jumping in. Had him settle, then asked him to get out of truck, with thank you for that....but also then directed sit & stay while I did whatever i'd opened tailgate for. Then close tailgate and take him elsewhere. He remembered her wanting him to jump in and just did at his own time frame . IMO she missed the whole point of accepting his enthusiasm to load up and working through a chance to partner with him to accept in and out on command only.

Training doesn't always happen when convenient. But it doesn't sound like the dog has been also trained to sit and stay either. Why was he loose with her? Was she in his assigned area? We don't know her set up for fence containment, why she had truck there, her intentions, etc.....general handling and personal contact isn't given us in this "test" question . Not fair

ETA. I'm thinking this owner has a poor leader established position in the pack. In general, not a good relation with this dog -- confusion there, praise lacking -- at least that's what I read into the info given

 

[Margali]

That was mishandled badly. I think the worst part was following him to his doghouse, breaking open the top, and screaming at him. That has completely destroyed his trust in her.

Fairly new to dogs but they are like human toddlers in some ways. They figure out what you want them to do at worst time and screaming makes things worse. So you ignore antics unless they are dangerous and heaps of praise if they do something right.

 

[Weldman]

I think it should of been handled to take few extra minutes to coax the dog out of the truck bed, stand your ground these guys are HARD HEADED!!!. Once the dog got out of the truck reward with a little playing or treat and then reverse it and ask the dog to back in with a command you always will use and then do the same for asking him out of the truck again, rewarding both ways.
Missed training experience in my opinion.

 

[SageHill]

Haven't had much to discuss here since Ozel is doing so well and behaving almost perfectly. In respect to the sheep, she is behaving perfectly. She has not eaten any more hoses but did get hold s the extension cord i the barn and completely chewed it into small pieces. I am glad I hiked the extension cord from the trailer to the house up on garden hooks designed for bird feeders. It kept that cord (which is powering the freezer in the trailer) from getting chewed. Today the men pulled that trailer out and finished loading it for a trip to Texas. I will have to go check the extension cord and make sure they replaced it up on the hooks and the hook in the porch rafter to protect it.

I talked to Erick Conard today and he told me about a training situation. A woman who has talked to him several times about her dogs and their behavior called to tell him that her male Anatolian was giving her "mean looks", looking at her in a way that made her uncomfortable. he was worried that the dog might decide to attack her. Erick had her describe the situation and she told him that she had tried to teach the dog to jump into the pickup bed last summer, but he would only put his feet up on the tailgate. The other day she dropped the pickup gate and the dog jumped into the truck bed. She ordered him out and scolded him. He kept jumping into the truck bed and she kept ordering him out until she got very angry. She ordered him to go to his doghouse following him and screaming at him the whole way. She told Erick that his doghouse was his "safe space". Then she was still so mad at the dog she opened the top of his doghouse and continued to yell at him and scold him for at least another 15 minutes or so.

Erick and I discussed the situation. We know what was going on in the dog's mind. This was a training issue that was mishandled.

I but would like to invite comments about this. Anyone have any thoughts about the actions of the dog and owner in this situation - the dog's actions, the owner's actions, why those actions occurred, and what should have happened. Please post responses and discuss.

Then I will tell you what Erick told her was happening.

Wow. OK wrong on all counts by the owner. Dog was only doing what it was taught. Then scolded for that so the dog IMO tried to do it better and got scolded. Huge failure on the owners part. Heck that goes for my dogs as well. Case in point - recently I just taught Obi and Zo to “go low” getting out of the UTV. They have to jump out from where we put our feet and not from high up. They learned it fast. So fast they figured if they jumped back IN they could do it again (sound familiar!?). My response
“You silly boy, OK, go low” and they both happily respond. Then I try hard to close the door fast enough so they don’t hop back in. The solution not to fix that as a problem (which it isn’t because IMO it’s a desire to please their human) would be to tell them STAY so I don’t have to race to close the door.
Scolding in their safe place to the extent of opening the top MAJOR BAD.
Now she has to fix things “kiss and make up” but the trust has been broken and a bad lesson learned quickly don’t trust the human. Tough enough with the herding breeds, Anatolian I have no idea if she can even come close. Trust once broken never fully mends.

 

[Baymule]

Wow. What an idiot. She had been working with her dog, trying to teach him to Load Up. Then later, AFTER he had time to process and think about it, he did just that.

This imbecile blew it, big time. Now this is what the dog will remember. She may NEVER get him to Load Up again. She scolded and yelled at him. She lost her temper, thus she lost control and made the dog the only one with a shred of dignity, self respect and self control. The dog became Pack Leader in that moment and she became bottom pack member, not worthy of respect.

Following him to his dog house and knocking the top off, destroyed his safe place. Now the dogs confidence may be shattered. Being an Anatolian, he will not cower in fear, he may and sounds like he does, actively dislike her. Good luck on getting him to follow ANY commands.

How in the world did Erick keep his composure? Especially when it is his dog, that he bred, birthed and raised? That alone was enough to distress him, he loves his dogs. He is such a kind and gentle man, firm when needed, but never would he even come close to a train wreck like this.

Poor dog, all for doing what she was trying to teach him. He should have received heaps of praise! Then down, more praise. Then Load Up several more times. She blew it.

 

[Ridgetop]

A+++ on all answers - you guys rock in understanding Anatolian training and behavior!
BTW truck was inside fenced area. I am not sure if this dog is a livestock guardian or family dog. She has had 3 Anatolians so far.

A little more info - apparently she had tried to get him to jump into the pickup bed during the heat of summer. He would put his front feet up on tail gate but not jump in. Can anyone say hot metal on paws?
Apparently, she didn't think about burning his feet when "training him t jump into the truck bed (would have felt like jumping into a frying pan!). Dumb on all counts. Put blankets or adding in the truck bed and teach the command in early am before metal heats up. Dog refused to get in truck bed so she stopped trying to teach hm that. Then when the weather is cool, he remembers what she wanted him to do and does it. And gets punished. Which of them is smarter do you think?

Always understand why the LGD refuses to follow a command before scolding or punishing him. Often it is something you can't see but the dog can smell, hear, etc. Trust your LGD.

The LGD won't let the sheep into the shed? Check out the shed before berating the dog. Maybe a poisonous snake is inside.

The LGD won't let the sheep into the far pasture? Investigate - there may be a heavier predator load than the dog can handle. By keeping the sheep close to the barn the dog has more control over the surroundings. Instead of complaining that your LGD is worthless, inspect your far pasture and predator load.

The dog won't stop barking all night? Don't yell "shut up" at the dog. Go outside and let the dog know that you hear the warning by praising the dog. An LGD knows he can take predators but the backup by owner is necessary to remain at the top of the pack. Barking is the first line of defense and the LGD's way of announcing to prowling predators that he is on the job.

These situations have happened with LGDs and owners have thought something was wrong with the dog instead of understanding the situation.

How in the world did Erick keep his composure?

I don't think he did. Apparently, when Erick told her she made a mistake punishing the dog for jumping into the truck bed and tried to explain what she had done wrong she went off on Erick! He said he was shocked at how she screamed at him for a half hour! It was a disturbing call for him. A couple weeks later she called him back and was sweet as pie!

I had same reaction to dog jumping into truck and what a stupid reaction the woman had. We agreed she was very stupid. Lost training opportunity. Praise for jumping into truck bed, give "out" or "down" order, praise for getting out, give "up" order, praise for that, then then repeat several times. Lost training which will result in dog associating punishment with getting into the truck from now on. Also invading "safe space" to continue with screaming chastisement major mistake since constant abuse from owner can make dog decide not to like her anymore. No wonder he "looked at her with a mean expression"! Might end up biting her if she keeps that up.

You guys are all great at understanding what went wrong with this. Great Anatolian trainers!

 

[peteyfoozer]

Mornin’ all! I’m ambulatin Gonna snag a cup of coffee and a danish. Need to pay more attention to the k9 body language around here. I noticed Fen hasn’t played with ANY toys or chewed anything lately.
Middle of he night I noticed he wasn’t next to my bed in his usual spot. I wound up searching through the house twice and finally found him underneath a side table! This is not normal. I coaxed him out and pet him. Boone came and pushed his snoot in so i pushed him away and he climbed up onto the couch. Fen climbed onto the other end so I went back to bed. I woke up to Boone loudly chewing a beefcheek and Fen was by the back door. . I transferred all my stuff to the couch, said good morning to Boone and let him outside, gave Fen my side if the bed and put his beloved antler where he could find it and here I am, sleepy again!

 

[Baymule]

Mornin’ all! I’m ambulatin Gonna snag a cup of coffee and a danish. Need to pay more attention to the k9 body language around here. I noticed Fen hasn’t played with ANY toys or chewed anything lately.
Middle of he night I noticed he wasn’t next to my bed in his usual spot. I wound up searching through the house twice and finally found him underneath a side table! This is not normal. I coaxed him out and pet him. Boone came and pushed his snoot in so i pushed him away and he climbed up onto the couch. Fen climbed onto the other end so I went back to bed. I woke up to Boone loudly chewing a beefcheek and Fen was by the back door. . I transferred all my stuff to the couch, said good morning to Boone and let him outside, gave Fen my side if the bed and put his beloved antler where he could find it and here I am, sleepy again!

It has started. The male Alpha Anatolian is showing up. I’ve already witnessed this with Sentry and Carson. And Sentry and Trip, Trip was my male Great Pyrenees. Sentry was/is smaller than both of them. With one look, one sttiff tail up, stance, Sentry cowered both down. Carson was terrified. He went from a happy dog to hiding under the porch. BJ fed all the dogs together. Carson wouldn’t come, wouldn’t eat, he dived under the porch and growled at us. We were new to Anatolians and didn’t realize what was happening. It got worse. We left Carson’s food close to the porch and he would finally come out to eat, basically when it was safe to do so.

Carson was a wreck and we didn’t see it. All we saw was his response which was to hide under the porch, snarling and growling at us. We had little toddlers granddaughters. We began to consider having Carson euthanized. Carson got to the point where he was growling and snarling way too much for us to think he was safe for our precious granddaughters.

I was talking to @Ridgetop one evening, both of us trying to figure out what was wrong with Carson. She and her DH had been to visit us and knew Carson to be a loving gentle dog. We were at our wits end and were going to call the vet to have Carson euthanized. Ridgetop was going down the list of all scenarios, we were analyzing everything and coming up empty.

Then I saw it.

Realization hit me like a bolt of lightning and it all became clear. Carson was trotting toward me and Sentry stepped in front of him, blocking his path. Tail up, stiff legged, that LOOK that said, I’m the boss around here. Carson cowered down in absolute terror. There it was. Carson was being bullied by Sentry and living under the strain of pure fear. I told Ridgetop what had just happened and we were both so relieved to finally figure out what was going on.

From that day forward, they were kept apart. Gradually as Carson realized he was safe from Sentry, he came back to being his old happy self.

Sentry’s hatred is intense. If he can get to Carson, he attacks. It’s horrific. I’ll say this, it is not a killing attack, it’s an attack of pack discipline. But Carson doesn’t understand pack attack discipline order. He’s traumatized by it. I have to be very careful of keeping gates closed and fastened. I recently left a gate opened and both Sentry and Buford attacked Carson. I was able to get Sentry in the lamb field. Carson was against the fence, being bitten by Buford and Sentry was biting Carson through the fence. The fight carried across the yard and I was able to get Buford in the middle field. I felt horrible. I apologized to Carson profusely and examined him for wounds. There were only two skinned places, no puncture wounds.

Male Anatolian aggression. Buford cowers down to Sentry. That’s pack order. Sheba also rules over Buford.

This is happening now with Fen and Boone. Fen doesn’t understand pack order and is on his way to being traumatized in his own home. @Ridgetop do you have any advice?