Anyone else notice any of their goats wasting away? Pics Added

[misfitmorgan]

x2 on Babs post

It sounds like you are dealing with several things right now.

This is what I'd do if they were my goats…
Get a fecal run on all the goats, try to have a McMasters done- not just the normal slide like they use on dogs. The McMasters will give you an actual count.

Pull blood on all the goats and send it out for at least CAE & Johnes. Most think CAE as arthritis in older does but it can cause them to be skinny. I don't know what your lab changes, but our lab charges us $1.50 for each test per goat. If you are out of state it would be $3 for each test per goat. I would also be sending blood out on a select handful of goats and have a mineral analysis done. This cost more but would be worth it IMO.

After you get some data go from there. Stop tossing workers at them until you know what parasites you are fighting against. You may Aldo be dealing with mites or lice, but bald patches are usually due to copper deficiency.

I don't know how the vets are in your region but if you may want to hire in a GOOD goat vet to help your situation right now.

I would love to hire in a good one......we dont have any. What lab are you referring to btw?
We do most of our own vet work, blood draws, etc because our vets are competent when it come to goats/sheep. We do use the vet for out dogs and they do fine there.

 

[misfitmorgan]

The Johnnes test can sometime show false positives with the standard ELISA. If you get a positive you can do a second Acid Fast Stain test that's better, but more expensive. We have had to do this once in many, many tests.

The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.

The only test method this lab offers for any of the 3 tests is ELISA.

 

[Southern by choice]

The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.

You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.

Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.

 

[OneFineAcre]

You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.

Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.

I agree you are not likely to have a false negative year after year.
But, you are also not likely to have CL and never have an abscess either year after year.

My vet has a herd of goats He tests for CAE only.
I know 2 other vets that have herds. One tests for CAE, TB, and Brucceliosis
The last vet also has a dairy. CAE, TB and Brucelliosis.
None test for CL.
You probably know vets who say you should.

 

[misfitmorgan]

I agree you are not likely to have a false negative year after year.
But, you are also not likely to have CL and never have an abscess either year after year.

My vet has a herd of goats He tests for CAE only.
I know 2 other vets that have herds. One tests for CAE, TB, and Brucceliosis
The last vet also has a dairy. CAE, TB and Brucelliosis.
None test for CL.
You probably know vets who say you should.

Doing what the vet does isnt always good practice. We lived by a vet who is unfortunately deceased because he was a great large animal vet....to other peoples animals. He had a beef herd and horses...he has between 4 and 8 horses at any given time over the 20yrs he was our neighbor in a 1 acre pen. There was rarely grass in the pen and except for the hottest part of summer it was always wet mud with standing water. Is this a proper way to keep horses? no. His beef cattle were so poorly managed he would lose 4-5 adult cows/year. One year he lost 14 6-8 month old calves and instead of burying them he dragged them into a pile in the woods and left them there to rot.

So personally no, i am not going to do everything the vet does. Keep in mind he was a really good very popular vet that everyone loved. Not saying the vets you know are bad but i'm also not saying they always know best.

You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.

Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.

Southern do you know any good websites or books off hand that explain titters well? Cause i have no clue what that means.

 

[OneFineAcre]

f

Doing what the vet does isnt always good practice. We lived by a vet who is unfortunately deceased because he was a great large animal vet....to other peoples animals. He had a beef herd and horses...he has between 4 and 8 horses at any given time over the 20yrs he was our neighbor in a 1 acre pen. There was rarely grass in the pen and except for the hottest part of summer it was always wet mud with standing water. Is this a proper way to keep horses? no. His beef cattle were so poorly managed he would lose 4-5 adult cows/year. One year he lost 14 6-8 month old calves and instead of burying them he dragged them into a pile in the woods and left them there to rot.

So personally no, i am not going to do everything the vet does. Keep in mind he was a really good very popular vet that everyone loved. Not saying the vets you know are bad but i'm also not saying they always know best.



Southern do you know any good websites or books off hand that explain titters well? Cause i have no clue what that means.

I don't necessarily follow everything the vet says either.
But, these 3 vets have some of the nicest animals around. I've been to all of their farms and believe me they don't abuse their animals the way the vet you mentioned did. I show goats with all 3 of them. I don't think the vet who lived by you is a very good comparison.

But, I also don't follow everything I read on internet forums either where people aren't even using their real names. Between the two, I'm more likely to go with what those 3 vets say/do every time. I'm sorry you don't have better vets for goats in your area. I'm lucky in that there are some good ones here.

But, in this case you could ask 10 vets and most likely get a split opinion any way.

Edited to add: When I said I don't always follow everything I read on internet forums where people aren't using real names, I did not mean to imply that there is not good information on this forum. There is.

 

[misfitmorgan]

If you know the vets and their herds and have seen in their barns and such but never found anyhing questionable i would be inclined to favor what the say or do as well. Split opinions always happen. I watched 2 local vets fighting over whether it was healthy to give dogs vaccinations every year or not....studies show it is not needed....but they both had their point of views.

 

[babsbag]

Here is an explanation of a titer. It has to do with how much they have to dilute the sample before no antibodies are detectable.

"A titer is a way of expressing concentration. Titer testing employs serial dilution to obtain approximate quantitative information from an analytical procedure that inherently only evaluates as positive or negative. The titer corresponds to the highest dilution factor that still yields a positive reading."

"Titers are usually expressed as ratios such as 1:256, meaning that one part serum (blood) to 256 parts saline solution (dilutant) results in no antibodies remaining detectable in the sample. A titer of 1:8 is, therefore, an indication of lower numbers of CL antibodies than a 1:256 titer."

With the 1:8 titer they only had to add 8 parts of dilutant whereas the 1:256 was 256 parts of dilutant.

Basically a titer will tell you if your goat has ever been exposed to the disease in question.

UC Davis used to say the 1:8 was negative for CL, now they say that it can be as high as 1:128. I have two goats that are 1:16 and 1:32, neither have had an abscess in the 8 years I have owned them. The rest of my herd test 1:8.

I personally don't test every year as my goats never leave my farm. I test new animals and I know where my animals come from. In 8 years of raising goats I have only bought 3 from people that I didn't know. I always ask for the test results in writing. Probably 85% of my herd is from my own foundation stock and there was never livestock on my land prior to us buying it and building a house so I don't worry too much about testing for CAE or CL anymore. I have just recently started testing for Johne's and since it is usually transmitted by colostrum I have only tested my older dams so far. If they are clean then the offspring born here really isn't at risk.

 

[norseofcourse]

I hope you can find out what's going on with your goats.

I just wanted to say WOW, so sorry you don't have any real good choice for a goat vet near you. $95 for a fecal test? And after all those fees for bloodwork - another $30 just to give you the results?? I'm sorry but those fees are just outrageous IMHO, I wouldn't want to go there either.

You can get fecals done through the mail, there is a company that does them for $5, there's a thread on here somewhere about them. It's not McMasters method, but it's better than nothing if you aren't doing your own yet (which is a great suggestion). Good for you for drawing the blood yourselves and getting some testing done.

 

[Southern by choice]

Many who do not test for CL already have CL in their herd that is why they don't test and also why they do not advocate for testing.
Talk with different vets and it will pretty much be split. However, vets can be in a hard spot with this one. Most really don't like to say much on testing with the exception of CAE. There are many in the vet industry that keep sheep and goats and their herds are positive what are they going to say? Had one vet tell us when we were looking at a buck tell me that I didn't want one- HUH? because they knew we were a tested negative herd and they were not -they were positive. I appreciated the fact that they cared enough to be honest.

Of course if CL is in a herd and the stock is rather valuable with desirable genetics or rare breeds etc it would be reasonable to not eliminate a herd because of it but best to try to manage it.
The meat goat world is riddled with it... but no matter... they are raising for meat- terminal animals.

IMO the "have no lump" thing is rather lame. I posted in another thread the devastating affects of that whole "no lump" crap...

UC Davis still gives titers but also does post 1:8 as Negative
anything over that is considered positive. Yes there has been 1:256 and animal was negative however that is NOT the norm ... generally the norm is internal CL at that point.
They (UC Davis) also did a study on sheep (more internal than external with sheep) anyway they had 3 or 6% of sheep that when necropsied after study was over - these were meat animals- that had internal CL with gross abscesses with titers of 1:16.
Norm? Probably not.
I do think the vaccine that has been given to goats may be the cause of some of these issues. Once the vaccine is given the animal will always test positive. I am unaware of research done on the offspring of those given the vaccine.
Many do not realize that goats with internal CL may not have any lumps at all and may drop dead when internal abscesses are many and have simply overtaken an animal. Weight gain can also be an issue.

Milk is not the primary source for Johnes.
from Johnes.org
"Consequently, the primary source of infection is infected animals’ manure (and the resultant contaminated environment) and milk.
.....
Milk from infected female animals is a second source of MAP infection. Just as with fecal shedding, the likelihood of MAP being excreted into milk increases with time as the infection progresses. MAP may be excreted directly into the mother's milk and/or the surface of the teats might be contaminated with infected manure."

Ultimately disease is disease. None of us in the livestock world is exempt. But why would you not do everything you could do to prevent disease? Data is a great management tool. Anything can happen... we all know this but if we just keep thinking this and that is no big deal what happens in the long run?

Each person should decide what is best for themselves but at least research for yourself. Your vet, your friend, people on forums etc ultimately are not dealing with the consequences- you the herdsman are- both financially and emotionally.