ARGH - in heat again! Now expecting pups.

[woodsie]

I am in quite a pickle. Winnie had her litter of pups at the very end of August and feeding 9 puppies really took a toll on her. She did end up losing a lot of weight and even lost a lot of her coat. Once the puppies had gone to their new homes (12-14 weeks) she started improving and looks fantastic now and is still lean but a healthy 93 lbs (she's not a huge boned Pyr).

As her condition had improved to the point of me feeling comfortable booking her for a spaying. I did that 2.5 weeks ago, she was put under and I got a call from the vets office saying that when they shaved her stomach she had a skin infection and they did not feel comfortable doing the surgery. So I picked her up and we just finished a 2 week dose of antibiotics. I checked her stomach when we finished the pills and was improved but still not complete cleared up. (I think I will look into some natural methods….I hate antibiotics anyhow). So yesterday I noticed Samson growling at my other dog through the fence and he was acting overly hyper…sure enough, do a tail check and Winnie is just starting to drip blood.

So I don't really want to put Winnie in surgery while she is in heat (I think there is extra risk and more blood loss) so I have called the kennel that she was in on for her first heat and she did really well there. They will take her again but as there are intact dogs there this time everyone will be going crazy. She is very experienced and said that we could bring her about 10 days after the beginnin of her heat and still be safe as she won't be in "standing heat"…just wanted to make sure that this is fully accurate with Pyrs. What would you guys do?

 

[Southern by choice]

That is exactly when she will be in standing heat,


They bleed for approx 10 days ... it is usually between 11-15 days that breeding will occur.
When I had my kennels I hated having a bitch in heat it really causes great stress on all the dogs in the kennel as well as the bitch herself. Instinct is instinct and dogs will claw at the concrete chew and break teeth on fencing and pretty much put themselves at risk to get to one another. Of course the kennels set up makes a difference but I'd keep her home and watch her closely.

You are correct spaying during heat is much riskier , very messy and difficult, alot more bleeding , and ALOT more expensive. Most vets hate to spay in a heat cycle.

Yeah, it is tough on the momma dogs... weight loss, hair loss is a biggy.... they generally look terrible. Did you de-worm her along with the pups? I would definitely do a round if you didn't.

The skin infection? What kind is it?
Staff, demodex, unknown?

You may want to check her thryoid (T3T4)if she isn't clearing up skin/coat and weight wise. Pregnancy can throw the thyroid off. As far as the infection... are they sure it is not from demodex?

 

[woodsie]

That is exactly when she will be in standing heat,


They bleed for approx 10 days ... it is usually between 11-15 days that breeding will occur.
When I had my kennels I hated having a bitch in heat it really causes great stress on all the dogs in the kennel as well as the bitch herself. Instinct is instinct and dogs will claw at the concrete chew and break teeth on fencing and pretty much put themselves at risk to get to one another. Of course the kennels set up makes a difference but I'd keep her home and watch her closely.

You are correct spaying during heat is much riskier , very messy and difficult, alot more bleeding , and ALOT more expensive. Most vets hate to spay in a heat cycle.

Yeah, it is tough on the momma dogs... weight loss, hair loss is a biggy.... they generally look terrible. Did you de-worm her along with the pups? I would definitely do a round if you didn't.

The skin infection? What kind is it?
Staff, demodex, unknown?

You may want to check her thryoid (T3T4)if she isn't clearing up skin/coat and weight wise. Pregnancy can throw the thyroid off. As far as the infection... are they sure it is not from demodex?

Yikes! I am at a loss as to the best route. If I keep her here both Samson and Winnie will be going crazy and I am pretty sure will find some way to get together. I would consider bringing her in the house but I am about to have a baby (literally due any day now with lots of Baxton Hicks and planning a home birth plus with kids coming and going I am sure she would sneak through a door left open half a second too long). Good thing is my other male pup has been neutered but really don't want to have her bred back to back just as she has recovered.

The kennel is set up really well (they specialize in guard and farm dogs and do a really great job) it worked out really well last time because there were no intact males at the time but this time there are two there. Last time I dropped her off at the first sign of heat but obviously the stress of other in tact males is less than ideal and was hoping to keep her home until she HAD to go. But I dunno, I would hate for her to be bred by a border collie at a kennel that would be a complete nightmare.

I did deworm her 3 times (just as she had the pups and then at 4 weeks but then didn't do her at the 8 weeks, and then she tanked super quick and I dewormed her at 12 weeks) but by then she had lost weight and a lot of her coat. She now is a healthy weight and has a nice coat (soft, full undercoat, just her top guard hairs that are still regrowing). I asked the vet and he said other than the skin infection on her stomach she looked good. They didn't tell me what kind of skin infection it was, definitely not staff though. It looked like a pink rough rash…and some of the fur had been stained a rusty pink colour. I was thinking it was probably a yeast type infection as it looked just like tear staining…it wasn't super "angry looking" just irritated. I did a full round of antibiotics which was not easy as she knew I was sneaking something in her food…she would even take cheese with the pills folded inside.

I have pretty much written off spaying her now and just trying to figure out the best option. What to do! and really bad timing with my baby's arrival imminent.

 

[Southern by choice]

Maybe she meant she was safe until 10 days as she won't be in standing heat til then.

IMO more often than not most people do not catch day 1 or 2 sometimes longer and so that is tricky.
Find out how they will be securing her. Look at where she will be... I hate this type of set up in a kennel but sometimes in some situations it is necessary... concrete block walls.... no indoor outdoor access (she will need to be hand walked) Strong gate and covered.

... at the end of the day though... you are preparing for the most wonderful thing in the world! A BABY!!!!!!!!!

So in the bid scheme of things... don't stress and if she does get pregnant by your male it isn't a biggy... you'll have another great litter. Back to back breedings aren't ideal but realistically they are pregnant for 9 weeks and nursing for 3-5... that's a total of 12-14 weeks... look at sheep goats cattle... their gestation and nursing is far longer but they get bred every year.
A back to back breeding is fine as long as that isn't year after year after year.

 

[woodsie]

Southern I am so with you on this. I am thankful she is currently in good health so at least if she does get pregnant I feel like she could handle it, even if it is less than ideal. This afternoon I saw her flagging and being all sassy with Samson, and thinking maybe we are closer to the standing heat because she looked very willing. Still bright red but as you say I might not have noticed on Day 1 especially cause Samson is keeping things very clean back there.

It is just not the first thing on my priority list and nice to know that someone I really respect will not think of me as an irresponsible "backyard breeder" if I can't prevent a litter due to more important circumstances at the moment…was never at total peace with fixing her just yet anyhow….those pups were just too perfect!

I guess we will see how all the timing will work out…I am hoping this baby comes during this cold snap…-20 outside seems like a great time to have a home birth and send hubby out to do the chores! lol!

 

[Southern by choice]

The way things have worked out makes me wonder if she simply shouldn't be spayed yet. Way too many "coincidences". You did such a great job with your litter and the placements it would be a shame to not have you breed her again. JMO.
Funny how these dogs tend to still be bright red and stand... usually it has gone to clear and then they stand... lgd breeds obviously don't follow the rules for anything!

I am all with the home birth!!!!!!!!!
I loved mine! Dh delivered though. LOL

Hope you check in when you deliver! Absolutely nothing better than a newborn! Praying for good, healthy, easy delivery.

 

[woodsie]

Well we are going to have another litter of pups….saw the deed happen today. Sigh. I guess it was just meant to be. I had even conceded to having Samson neutered instead as Winnie was in heat and even made him an emergency appt but alas no winning that battle…he caught her this afternoon. She was still dripping red yesterday and only on day 5 of her heat…I am certain it hasn't been 10 days but she seems to have an extremely long standing heat….last time she was at the kennel for a month.

I guess it is okay as I am having rave reviews from the people that brought home a pup…just got pics last night from a girl that weighed in at 80 lbs at 5 months and she has her family completely wrapped around her paw. lol! Will be a nice time of year to have pups too so all is good, if not expected.

On the other hand, I think I have a farm name…Fertility Farms…something always seems to be being bred or having babies.

 

[Southern by choice]

CONGRATULATIONS!

I really think there is a reason why this was kinda taken out of your hands. Sometime I have to laugh when we are doing one thing and the Lord has a different plan because he knows more than us and He bypasses our plans.

Makes me wonder if there is a family out there that has been praying for a LGD pup and is waiting on the Lord and you are the one to have that pup for that family.

We prayed for our dogs and were getting very discouraged when "suddenly" there they were. We were very blessed.

Remember a back to back isn't a big deal you just don't want to do that over and over.... I think because so many terrible breeders do the constant breeding and "dog" their bitches out it became a big deal... like many things... the root of the issue was taken out of context. Everything will be fine.

Wonderful to hear the feedback about the pups!
I am always so impressed with your diligence. Remember when they were escaping and your DH was on the verge of getting rid of the dogs. That is such a great story and shows how the diligence and commitment that you poured into them made all the difference!