Asking for ideas on how to "manage" coyotes

[lcertuche]

Coyotes are problematic everywhere it seems. There was one in our driveway one night when DS (12) took trash out one night. I don't believe I have lost any chickens to them but I keep them locked up at night and I haven't seen any during the day. I do hear them yipping around my pond at night which is maybe 25 yards away (if that far). I wish they'd get busy getting those cottontales that are running rampant.

 

[JACB Dorper]

Heel low:

Owned our Conservation Farm since 1998 so it is not an overnight project to get a place predator proofed. That said, we only ever lost one bantam Brahma retired hen on Earth Day 2007; yard bird decided to stay out and one of the many welcomed rodent harvesting owls ate her. My fault, complacent about head count after years of doing it. Back at it.

We tried our best not to expand too quickly. Easiest part is getting the critters, longest hardest and most expensive part, the facilities to house them well by. So many fun things about having animals and birds, but the real work and cost for us, the place to keep them from harm--that is the place where hard work reaps rewards.

One year, neighbours baited a babe black bear by covering a 4x8 sheet of plywood with bird seed in the fall time, then chased him into our place...poor thing!

All are shut up at night. Hardware cloth, 2 x 12 wooden planking, gravel and no debris around pens. Sliding doors with metal welded panels over the windows. Over 30+ outbuildings. Metal roofed. Ruminants (goats, sheep, & llamas <--useless predator animals...useless!) are metal corralled with welded wire on fences. Cougar and bear proofed barns. On a grizzly bear's route too. So no eggs, certainly NO bodies about. Before we got creatures, left some household garbage in a shed and then the coyotes made a 90 day habit of checking to see if we did it again...not ever now. One egg in a five gallon pail by the garage, brought in a skunk.

Bird yard 2013​

If'n you have predators, that is YOUR fault not theirs for invading their space. If we want to keep delicious poultry, sheep, goats, pigs and even dogs...we must protect our property with decent facilities and NO temptations or attractants.

We ran a length of hardware cloth around our bird yard...

It makes coming into the bird yard an ordeal. Gotta breach the triple perimeter, negotiate the cross fencing, then get over the hardware cloth before you even GET to the birds which are never outside in the dark. I don't let the animals out unless I am home to keep an eye on the goings on. Sure, predation can happen in the day time...but I am there to catch them in the act.

2008 - Birds out in the bird yard...I am home too!​

Expensive, you bet but I don't have to run outside half dressed for work because some 'yote is trying to pull one of my precious beasts off the place. Time consuming, you bet...been at this since 1998 and never quite done. We have security cameras to deter the human predators, not the beasts past would be nice to know why the security lights just came on...besides the roving neighbours felines.

Front pasture and New Orchard
Perimeter triple fenced and cross fenced and fenced again!​

How many kinds of predators...from the yearly fall visitations by bears and cougars, to the eagles, resident owls and other raptors, to skunks, the neighbours dogs and cats, the two legged predators (every single door is padlocked and locked up each evening), etc. How did we celebrate the new millennium, listening to our resident pack of coyotes howling by our fence. We watch for tracks along the fenceline but because we are so heavily cross fenced and triple perimeter fenced...they walk up, survey the situation and decide the neighbours place is more favourable for a meal than ours. Too much work to get in and once in, how you getting out.

Swan building under construction
Two Pear-A-Dice geese buildings behind​

I used two strands of ele netting and portable charger, for fencing temporarily so my ruminants can clear the ditches out...fire hazard to tossed cigs off the roads.

There are enough other issues in this nasty world that can happen to have one lose livestock (then deadstock) that I can't bear to endure losing them to predators too. Blah!

Swan house completed in 2013 -
Zero predation​

Love the wildlife here...it belongs here, we humans don't. So we enjoy the wilds and we respect that at any moment, my one time only record of losing an old stewing hen...could be upped.

One is never finished fencing...one is never done due diligence. ONE is never 100% safe but so it goes. Mistakes are what learn us up and ensures we do better. For birds of prey, double top your wired pens with a distance of about a foot (owls can sit on top of a wired run, grab ducks that fly straight up and keep doing that because they can't get the prey out the pen and have to drop it dead to the ground. Or better yet, metal roofing like we have done.

As far as shooting coyotes and other predators...woe to any that think that's a solution. For every hole in a territory seems only to encourage three fold more to investigate the gap and see if it is worth taking on as their own. I would far sooner live with our resident pack of coyotes that accept, we failed once back in 1998 and learned not to leave ANY delectable garage out for attracting troubles. And BTW, use to work long time ago for a Conservation Office and problem wildlife reporting was one of MY duties...the triple bagged garbage still attracted bears, the garbage inside a shed still attracted predators...the frozen cin a buns in a freezer in an outdoor garage still incited the siding to be taken off the building...sigh. The unpicked windfallen apples still attracted beasts, the cougars still hunted household pets and lawn tamed deer...basically wildlife has to be TAUGHT to know what a food source was and a coyote pup is more scared of a sheep than the ewe is afraid of the varmit. But once fed or shown how to hunt domestics...that then becomes a much easier source of food than the wild kind. Not happy for human or wildlife.

Some coyote tips.

- When fencing, don't top the fence with a board or something a coyote can see and judge distance from...they will tend to leap higher if they can judge better how high to jump or even jump off the top rail so to speak.
- Don't use any type of carrion or gut piles to teach the predators how very good sheep, goat or poultry tastes. We've never had a problem with the coyote population here wanting to eat sheep, goat or llama. They are oblivious that this is a food source, plan on keeping it that way.
- Keep your outbuildings and farm clean. No brush piles, garbage or refuse to sneak around.
- Security lights, they have the solar kind now, they are great at POOFing an unexpected visitor.
- Security cameras and game cameras - great way to know what is on your land.
- Dawn to Dusk - no temptations left out and about...locked up tight in the barns and coops.
- Dogs of any kind and fashion...the marking of territory puts up the sensible alert to the 'yotes that not just humans reside here...
- Fences and cross fences. A predators worst nightmare is going in and not being able to negotiate back out. If a coyote gets injured trying to get a meal, that's pretty much their life over. Easy to get without incident. Some complain that a predator got IN their coop and then proceeded to kill everything inside that moved...yup, threat to the predator.
- Anti-dig strip; alot of work, sure but bury page wire along a pen under gravel. Predators tend to stand at the fence and then try to dig under, not knowing to step back of the wire and begin digging. No debris, you can visually inspect your perimeter for any activity and rectify the issue before the predator gets in with your beasts. Make the your breaching of your perimeter not worth the effort.

I worked for Alberta Ag coupla decades ago...fencing tips on coyote proofing.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex888

And many would look at our set up and call it Ft. Knox...no regrets here and why yes, we do have the gaggles of geriatric geese to go with Fort Knox too come to think of it.

You may live in harmony with predators...we do and love that. Nothing makes me smile more than to hear the yip of the 'yotes, knowing full well I can sleep soundly at night because it won't be our beasts they are dining on tonight.

About the only thing we have not been able to keep away from the critters...the grim reaper... Old age takes all of us and I guess if you gotta go, best it be in the shade on a nice summer's day. Not savagely chased, mauled and torment by monster predators. I'd far rather wring my animal's necks, quick and thorough than let them fall to predation.

Doggone & Chicken UP!w

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[soarwitheagles]

Dang, this thread has recently turned more and more toward the totally wacko Sierra Club's insanity. I cannot believe it.

The ONLY sane way I can live in harmony with predators is if they are totally annihilated, dead and buried. For us, it is the best guarantee of all that our livestock are safe and will not be taken. Two different neighbors, each had over 20 young, tender lambs utterly tortured, mangled and brutally killed by coyotes that didn't even eat all of the carcasses.

If we have problems with predators it is our fault and not theirs? That statement is based upon sheer ignorance and brain washing...Another belief system and statement based upon the absolute insanity of the twisted thinking of Sierra Club or Sierra Club camp.

"Wild life belongs here...we humans don't?"

More of the twisted and perverse thinking where people in their delusion elevate the worth and value of an animal over a human being...

No apologies given...

 

[frustratedearthmother]

If someone is losing 20 lambs to coyotes - they are doing something wrong. In fact they are doing a LOT wrong.

 

[babsbag]

I am the OP with the 4 LGDs and the coyote that has not been back since installing the hot wire.

I bought my 4th dog to live with the chickens. She was too young to be alone with them, no training with chickens or ducks I honestly didn't have the time or the heart to stick her in there alone. No housing for her either and only about 1/4 acre. Good idea, just not ready to implement it so bad timing on my part. My oldest two that are chicken safe are not duck proven as the ducks are a new addition and I didn't want to take the chance of losing my ducks, I only have 4. Those two dogs would have to stay together and they ARE my goat dogs, could never put them with the chickens full time. The third dog is a little older than my puppy, but again unproven with fowl. My LGDs are also very people oriented (me) and I like it that way. I spend a lot more time with my goats than I do with my chickens, the dog would be very lonely in there alone.

My chickens used to live with my goats and dogs but the dairy required a change to that housing situation.

I am in the middle of building a dairy and my cup runneth over so for now it is hot wire and it works. I also recently bought another 6 acres that my dogs patrol. My land is not flat, you can't see across it at all so there is about 9 acres and a mile of fence line and currently close to 100 goats. My 4 dogs are busy.

 

[babsbag]

@soarwitheagles did they lose the lambs all in one night? I keep thinking that you need an LGD and I have been looking for one for you. LGD puppyhood can be tough so I am on the lookout for an older already trained dog for you.

I wouldn't miss the coyotes one bit. We have a ground squirrel population explosion that the coyotes don't seem to care about in the least...I wish they would make them their dinner and at least be useful. I hear packs of them singing the song of their people every night, they are thick out there. They used to hunt them by helicopter in areas near me but that has been outlawed now. Too bad.

 

[Southern by choice]

"Wild life belongs here...we humans don't?"

More of the twisted and perverse thinking where people in their delusion elevate the worth and value of an animal over a human being...

No apologies given...

I couldn't agree more!

We do like the wildlife here BUT we have no problem taking out a nuisance animal.
Years ago NC didn't even have rabies.
Then it did.
Then it exploded and our particular county had the highest incidence in the country until hunters were brought in to really cut the raccoon population down. They were the issue!
Of course from there the foxes and coyotes and skunks now were carrying rabies.
It is an ongoing issue.

I think it is a ridiculous notion to lock up all our livestock. Thousands of years cattle, goats, sheep etc have NOT been locked up and the herdsman (shepherd) and their dogs killed predators when they came in to attack.

It is late spring going into summer there is no way my goats want to be locked in a barn.
When coyotes have no real natural predator (wolves & mt lions generally being their only predators) their numbers get out of hand quick.
Where we are located they have none, it is up to us to deal with them. Of course I use dogs (LGD's) and have never lost an animal under their care.
But just outside their fencing was a wonderful deer the coyotes took down and then the buzzards finished off their carcass.

Soar- not sure if you are still not wanting to entertain the idea but I evaluated a litter awhile ago and keep up with it. The dogs are still young 20 weeks but safe with baby goats, working on poultry and best they LOVE children. They are raised on a family farm and the hope is they go to farms where they will have interaction with families. Very sound tempered dogs. They are young but learning well. By 1 year they will be able to do anything necessary.

 

[soarwitheagles]

If someone is losing 20 lambs to coyotes - they are doing something wrong. In fact they are doing a LOT wrong.

Yes, and I will tell you what they were doing wrong:

1. They did not have night vision scopes [95% of the kills were at night] so they were left at the mercy of the coyotes because they could not see them.
2. They did not bring them into a coyote proof set up at night because they did not have a coyote proof set up [they should have made one].
3. They did not realize that once a pack of coyotes tastes the fresh blood of a lamb, they will most certainly come back.
4. They had no LGD's.
5. They were rookies with no experience at all in this part of the state raising sheep.

That is the story on one of my friends.

The story of my other friend is different. He eventually hired people to take out the coyotes. Since then, he has not lost as many sheep.

@soarwitheagles did they lose the lambs all in one night? I keep thinking that you need an LGD and I have been looking for one for you. LGD puppyhood can be tough so I am on the lookout for an older already trained dog for you.

I wouldn't miss the coyotes one bit. We have a ground squirrel population explosion that the coyotes don't seem to care about in the least...I wish they would make them their dinner and at least be useful. I hear packs of them singing the song of their people every night, they are thick out there. They used to hunt them by helicopter in areas near me but that has been outlawed now. Too bad.

They both lost the lambs within a four week period. Neither of them had a place to secure the sheep at night from coyotes. If I remember correctly, one lost 23, the other 17.

I couldn't agree more!

We do like the wildlife here BUT we have no problem taking out a nuisance animal.
Years ago NC didn't even have rabies.
Then it did.
Then it exploded and our particular county had the highest incidence in the country until hunters were brought in to really cut the raccoon population down. They were the issue!
Of course from there the foxes and coyotes and skunks now were carrying rabies.
It is an ongoing issue.

I think it is a ridiculous notion to lock up all our livestock. Thousands of years cattle, goats, sheep etc have NOT been locked up and the herdsman (shepherd) and their dogs killed predators when they came in to attack.

It is late spring going into summer there is no way my goats want to be locked in a barn.
When coyotes have no real natural predator (wolves & mt lions generally being their only predators) their numbers get out of hand quick.
Where we are located they have none, it is up to us to deal with them. Of course I use dogs (LGD's) and have never lost an animal under their care.
But just outside their fencing was a wonderful deer the coyotes took down and then the buzzards finished off their carcass.

Soar- not sure if you are still not wanting to entertain the idea but I evaluated a litter awhile ago and keep up with it. The dogs are still young 20 weeks but safe with baby goats, working on poultry and best they LOVE children. They are raised on a family farm and the hope is they go to farms where they will have interaction with families. Very sound tempered dogs. They are young but learning well. By 1 year they will be able to do anything necessary.

SBC, I am still interested in purchasing an LGD, but here, they are so expensive and I have no time whatsoever to do the training.

Best of all, we have had no problems with coyotes at all here, but I bring my sheep in out of the forest every night during the winter, spring, and fall.

Presently I have them in a pasture that borders our living quarters, and we have had no problems at all.

We are super thankful about the safety that our sheep have been experiencing. I am convinced a local neighbor has eliminated the coyote problem in our neck of the woods. The only issue I have had is once in a while a dog will get in and chase/bite some of our sheep. We solved this challenge by finding the breach in the fence and mending it. But I am still of the mindset and totally prepared to shoot any dog/coyote immediately if it is attacking/injuring our sheep.

"Woe to people that shoot coyotes and other predators?"
"Wild life belongs here, we humans don't?"
"Having predators is a human fault, not a wild life fault?"
"Live in harmony with predators?"

Each of these statements are based upon a world view, belief systems, paradigms, as well as terribly twisted thinking that is a deep perversion of what is right, just, and true.

Edited by staff

 

[Southern by choice]

Love the wildlife here...it belongs here, we humans don't.

I do think this is an ideology, and here is where many disagree.
I am of the mindset that we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc.

Hunting is one of the most effective conservation methods.

It is not logical to think that farmers can possibly secure all their property.

 

[soarwitheagles]

I do think this is an ideology, and here is where many disagree.
I am of the mindset that we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc.

Hunting is one of the most effective conservation methods.

It is not logical to think that farmers can possibly secure all their property.

SBC,

Yes, it is an ideology, a terribly twisted and perverse ideology in the sense that it is systematic body of terribly wrong, twisted and perverted concepts especially about human life and culture.

I too subscribe to the truth you have stated because your words are based upon eternal truths and principles and not upon man made delusions: we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc.

Your words could not be better stated. Thank you for sharing.