Baby Bunnies born today! Colors?

[HaloRabbits]

@MultipleAnimals They are New Zealands.
Bucks background- all reds with one GG Dam being a REW and one GG Dam being a Steel black.
Does background- all blacks and blues with one GG Dam being red and one GG Sire being REW.

 

[Bunnylady]

Steel (Es) is a weird gene. If you combine Steel with the normal extension gene (E) on an agouti patterned animal, you get the classic gold or silver tipped Steel (which often looks sort of like a very dark version of Chestnut or Chinchilla).

(Steel Grey Flemish Giant, which is genetically a steeled Chinchilla)

(Light Grey Flemish Giant - which is genetically Chinchilla)

Combined with any other allele in the E series, Steel may look exactly like a self - solid black, blue, chocolate; whatever else the other color genes code for. Sometimes those oddball Steels may have just the tiniest little bit of gold or silver ticking to indicate that they aren't really selfs, and that may not show up until the baby coat sheds out. This is different from silvering; Silver puts completely white hairs on the animal, and this is light ticking on darker colored hairs.

Since the buck is a (broken) red, some of his offspring (maybe even all of them, since he comes from a line of reds) should have gotten the agouti gene. Since none of the offspring appear to be agouti patterned, that makes me suspect that the doe is a Steel - maybe even a "Super Steel" (EsEs). Steel is pretty common in New Zealands, maybe even more than self (a) is.

The doe's gray eyes make me believe she is genetically a Chinchilla, whatever else she may be. It will be interesting to see what color the babies' eyes are, when they open. Gray eyes on a black or broken black are a DQ; the slightly less intense color on a self Chin would also be remarked on. It would be a bit more subtle on a Blue, but the color difference might be enough to get a Blue self Chin marked down for "poor color" on a show table.

 

[HaloRabbits]

I had never looked into the Steel gene.. I didn't know it was common in NZ's.

I would love to know their genotypes, and I know my best chance at doing this for now is test breedings.

Before taking in the information from the steel gene possibly playing a role this is what I had:

I think the buck is Genotype: A_ B_ C_ D_ ee Enen ww
and I thought the doe was Genotype: aa B_ C_ Dd E_ enen W_ OR aa B_ cchd_ Dd E_ enen W_

The kits I kept from her first litter I am assuming are the same as her (some with Enen though).

The kits from this litter will be Genotype: a_ B_ C_ __ e_ enen w_ OR a_ B_ cchd_ __ e_ enen w_ (with some being Enen).

 

[Bunnylady]

If the doe is a steel, the kits could even be AAB_cchd_DdEseenenWw, and they'd be solid black, just like a self (aa).

 

[MultipleAnimals]

@MultipleAnimals They are New Zealands.
Bucks background- all reds with one GG Dam being a REW and one GG Dam being a Steel black.
Does background- all blacks and blues with one GG Dam being red and one GG Sire being REW.

There is a Possibility of Getting Steels, Reds, Blues, Blacks, REW, White(different eye color) and Of Course Brokens and Charlies(could be False Charlies, Breed a "Supposed" Charlie to a Solid that is Solid For 3 or more Generations, If its a Real Charlie, youll get Brokens. If its a False Charlie, You should get Solids)

 

[HaloRabbits]

There is a Possibility of Getting Steels, Reds, Blues, Blacks, REW, White(different eye color) and Of Course Brokens and Charlies(could be False Charlies, Breed a "Supposed" Charlie to a Solid that is Solid For 3 or more Generations, If its a Real Charlie, youll get Brokens. If its a False Charlie, You should get Solids)

I have a couple false charlies, it is genetically impossible for me to have a charlie because only one parent is a broken and the other is a solid.

Previously I did want a charlie, but after reading more on them I am going to steer away from broken X broken breedings. My broken red buck we used this time threw some beautifully marked kits (he comes from a long line of brokens so I imagine he got some great modifiers). I am more than happy to use him whenever I want marked kits.

 

[MultipleAnimals]

I have a couple false charlies, it is genetically impossible for me to have a charlie because only one parent is a broken and the other is a solid.

Previously I did want a charlie, but after reading more on them I am going to steer away from broken X broken breedings. My broken red buck we used this time threw some beautifully marked kits (he comes from a long line of brokens so I imagine he got some great modifiers). I am more than happy to use him whenever I want marked kits.

Charlies are Great For a Broken Program. Just Breed To Solids Only, Those would be nice Brokens. I dont Recommend Breeding Charlie to Charlie, Thats Where Many Problems Come From. First Gen. Charlies and Second Gen. Charlies Are Best For A Broken Program.

 

[Bunnylady]

I dont Recommend Breeding Charlie to Charlie, Thats Where Many Problems Come From. First Gen. Charlies and Second Gen. Charlies Are Best For A Broken Program.

I suspect you still don't understand the problem of Charlies. A first generation Charlie has the same problem as a 16th generation Charlie; it has two copies of the Broken gene. The Broken gene interferes with the ability of the animal to grow nerves at the very earliest stages of its development.

An animal's digestive system is lined with muscles that contract in a rhythmic, wavelike motion that pushes the food through it at a certain rate. There are nerves that carry signals to those muscles telling them when to contract. A normal, non-spotted rabbit has a certain number of nerves doing that job; for the sake of simplicity, let's say that number is 100. A rabbit that has one copy of the broken gene has fewer nerves than a non-spotted one; maybe 70 or 80. This digestive system isn't working as well as a normal one, but it's still working well enough that you probably will never notice a difference.

The Charlie, with two copies of Broken interfering with its ability to make nerves has a lot fewer - maybe 20 or 30, instead of the normal 100. That's all Charlies, whether or not they have any Charlie relatives. This digestive system is going to run slow - like, dial-up internet slow. In addition, a lot of Charlies have a condition known as Megacolon (some sources seem to indicate that ALL Charlies have Megacolon, the only difference is how bad it is in that particular rabbit). Megacolon means that the last parts of the digestive tract are dilated, like a blown up balloon. The rabbit with Megacolon has problems with absorbing nutrients from its food, and is prone to having episodes when the digestive system stops moving entirely (GI stasis). Some bunnies with Megacolon don't survive long enough to make it out of the nest box. Some are clearly stunted, not growing a fast as their Enen or enen siblings. Some may seem to be functioning at a nearly normal level as youngsters, but Megacolon can be progressive, so it may get worse as the rabbit gets older.

Virtually any rabbit can have a stasis episode, if it experiences the right sort of stress, but Charlies are much more prone to them. Many years ago, I had a Charlie Mini Lop doe that had an episode every time she kindled. She'd make a nest, pull fur, put her babies in the box and clean them up, just like she was supposed to, then sit hunched up in one corner of the cage for a day, grinding her teeth in pain. I was new to rabbits, and didn't know what was going on; I bred her 3 times before I made the connection, then I never bred her again. I reckon we were both lucky it didn't kill her.

I'm not going to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do, but I don't like seeing a rabbit hurting like that, and I don't want to be making rabbits that are likely to get into that state simply because of their genetics. So, I don't breed Charlies, and I don't do crosses that could result in Charlies. I like the Broken pattern too much to avoid it altogether, but I will gladly risk booted and other poorly marked Brokens, rather than create Charlies.

 

[MultipleAnimals]

I suspect you still don't understand the problem of Charlies. A first generation Charlie has the same problem as a 16th generation Charlie; it has two copies of the Broken gene. The Broken gene interferes with the ability of the animal to grow nerves at the very earliest stages of its development.

An animal's digestive system is lined with muscles that contract in a rhythmic, wavelike motion that pushes the food through it at a certain rate. There are nerves that carry signals to those muscles telling them when to contract. A normal, non-spotted rabbit has a certain number of nerves doing that job; for the sake of simplicity, let's say that number is 100. A rabbit that has one copy of the broken gene has fewer nerves than a non-spotted one; maybe 70 or 80. This digestive system isn't working as well as a normal one, but it's still working well enough that you probably will never notice a difference.

The Charlie, with two copies of Broken interfering with its ability to make nerves has a lot fewer - maybe 20 or 30, instead of the normal 100. That's all Charlies, whether or not they have any Charlie relatives. This digestive system is going to run slow - like, dial-up internet slow. In addition, a lot of Charlies have a condition known as Megacolon (some sources seem to indicate that ALL Charlies have Megacolon, the only difference is how bad it is in that particular rabbit). Megacolon means that the last parts of the digestive tract are dilated, like a blown up balloon. The rabbit with Megacolon has problems with absorbing nutrients from its food, and is prone to having episodes when the digestive system stops moving entirely (GI stasis). Some bunnies with Megacolon don't survive long enough to make it out of the nest box. Some are clearly stunted, not growing a fast as their Enen or enen siblings. Some may seem to be functioning at a nearly normal level as youngsters, but Megacolon can be progressive, so it may get worse as the rabbit gets older.

Virtually any rabbit can have a stasis episode, if it experiences the right sort of stress, but Charlies are much more prone to them. Many years ago, I had a Charlie Mini Lop doe that had an episode every time she kindled. She'd make a nest, pull fur, put her babies in the box and clean them up, just like she was supposed to, then sit hunched up in one corner of the cage for a day, grinding her teeth in pain. I was new to rabbits, and didn't know what was going on; I bred her 3 times before I made the connection, then I never bred her again. I reckon we were both lucky it didn't kill her.

I'm not going to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do, but I don't like seeing a rabbit hurting like that, and I don't want to be making rabbits that are likely to get into that state simply because of their genetics. So, I don't breed Charlies, and I don't do crosses that could result in Charlies. I like the Broken pattern too much to avoid it altogether, but I will gladly risk booted and other poorly marked Brokens, rather than create Charlies.

I realize That. But Charlie's are great for a BROKEN program, by breeding to solids only. Any Brokens from that Breeding should be Bred back to Solids to LESSEN the risk of Megacolon, it won't go away entirely, I know that.

 

[HaloRabbits]

If the doe is a steel, the kits could even be AAB_cchd_DdEseenenWw, and they'd be solid black, just like a self (aa).

At 2.5 weeks old I was able to get a closer look at the babies colors. Most appear black like the mommy except one who looks like she may be a gold tipped steel so maybe she is A_ Es_ or aa EsE ?

Is this color gold tipped steel? It is kind of hard to get in the pictures, but you can see on the top of her head, some on her shoulders and by her nose.