Before you all jump down my throat

[Queen Mum]

An LGD doesn't have to be a specific breed and anyone who insists that it does is full of baloney. An LGD has to have a specific temperament and training, training, training. It should be raised from a pup around livestock. But that isn't a hard and fast rule either.

Some breeds are better than others but really the key is to train and work with the dog and do it from a very young age. I think you are on the right track. Work hard with that pup and work daily. You will know soon enough if it has the right temperament.

My LGD is a Siberian Husky. She started her career at age 8.

 

[terrilhb]

These are my 2 dogs that live with my does and my chickens. They will be 10 months in about 2 weeks. They are fantastic with the goats. Especially the 5 month old doeling. She loves to play with them. They are getting better with the chickens. I never leave them unattended with them. Thankfully I learned without having to lose one. But they are getting better. They have learned the words Leave it very well. What ever is in their mouths they drop. Or if they are going to get it they stop in their tracks.

They have alot more to learn. But they know what belongs and what does not. And they have no problem letting me know. I am really proud of them.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

Sorry Queen Mum but I disagree completely. Not just any dog can be an LGD. I know alot of people think that esp. when they have a dog that is able to be in with goats or sheep. They think that their dog is an LGD because they throw it in with the animals and because they bark at creatures in the dark they can somehow guard and protect them. Or that they are good with them and don't chase. They like my goats or sheep. Not true. Dogs like Huskies or Labs or Collies or Shetlands or retriever etc. are NOT LGD's. Sure they may not hurt your animals and they may be really good with them and they may bark in the night but they can NOT take large animals down such as Coyotes, Bobcats, Wolves, other dogs, etc. They don't have any of what they need to do that. They were not bred to do that and they're lacking the strength, the power, and the instincts. LGD breeds were bred for that. They have the size, the power and the instincts. The difference between all these so called LGD's and real ones is just that. It drives me crazy to hear people talking about their dog and how it's an LGD. It's not!! I'm not going to put my Anatolian or my Great Pyrenees and put them on a sled team or put them in an agility course. I'm not going to go hunting with them. They are not bred for that just as all these so called LGD's are not bred for guarding livestock. So I really wish people would stop saying their mutt dogs that have no LGD breed in them can guard their animals. No, they can bark at something in the woods and kill a rabbit. They can't run thru the woods or fields in the black night, chasing a pack of wolves or coyotes with their LGD teammates and kill them. That's what LGD's do. They were bred for it.
Also, LGD breed X an LGD breed is an LGD. Not

Anyone that has a REAL LGD knows this and anyone that disagrees with me, just go get yourself a real one and you'll see EXACTLY what I'm saying.

The other difference is the famous term "training". LGD's are NOT trained to do what they do, it's INSTINCTUAL. LGD's are 100% submissive to their livestock, THEY DO NOT play with the livestock. It drives me crazy when people say their LGD's play with their goats. That tells me that they either have a non-LGD breed crossed into them or they have none in them. I have NEVER heard of a real true LGD ever playing with their livestock. It doesn't happen and that is a sign of a bad dog and shows me exactly what you have. That being, a fake LGD. They do not need to be penned apart from the livestock at any time. btw chickens are NOT livestock and this is where some issues come into play. LGD's were not bred to guard birds. You can get them to but it is very hard and most of the time it takes a year or more.

Farm dogs or ranch dogs are great but they can't do what an LGD does. They are good 'warners' against people or strange animals on the farm but they may or may not be able to kill them. Sure they can kill a rabbit, squirrel, or raccoon, but I've never seen any of those kill a baby kid or lamb. They can scare them off and let you know that something is there but most of the time they can not take care of the issue themselves. It is not about "my dog is better than your dog" it is about understanding the nature of a breed and what they were meant to do. 300 acres, wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, bobcats, HMMMMM Huskies or Anatolians? (or any TRUE LGD) No brainer here!!

 

[Roll farms]

I agree that what LGDs do is instinctual, bred into them, not 'training'.
I agree that true LGD breeds are 'better' than non-LGD breeds b/c they will bond with the animals they live with, and a good one refuses to leave their pen, even to be with their 'master' or another dog, etc.

I also agree that non-LGD breeds may guard your farms, animals, bark, and kill vermin....but that doesn't make them a true LGD.

I also feel like IF you are willing to supervise / train (and accept the consequences when and if things go wrong), it's your business if you use a non-LGD breed....but please don't tell me it's 'better' or even 'as good as', UNLESS you have used a true LGD. Adequate? Maybe But w/ no experience w/ the real deal, you can't really say.

I've been 'farming' almost 20 yrs now. I've had 14 dogs over that time-span, everything from mutts to Bassett hounds to husky x sheperd, to LGDs and poodles and a Newfie.

My father rented from a farmer when I was a kid. Lived on a 500 acre sheep and cattle farm. He raised Siberian Huskies. When his females would have pups, they almost always found a way to get out and go kill a ewe or lamb or two and my dad had to reimburse the farmer. Never bothered the livestock the rest of the time, but instinct is instinct.
I wouldn't even consider owning a husky while I own livestock, much less using one to guard the livestock. Personal choice, but I grew up seeing what they're capable of...and would always worry about, "What if they got out?"
If someone chooses to do so, great...I just wouldn't. I'm not saying you're wrong to do so, and again, more power to you if it's successful....but since I have experience with LGD and huskies, I choose to use LGDs.

SHK, I disagree w/ a couple things you said....Any LGD under 18 mos. can and will 'play' with their goats, because they're puppies and they're bonding to the goats / sheep / whatever....they play w/ them like littermates.
Gus, who I guarantee you is half pyr, half anatolian, LOVES to play 'head butt games' with Penny, and he's 3.5 now. It breaks up the monotony for him, I guess, and she's the only one he 'plays' with.

I have a couple goats w/ ripped ears from when Razor and Edge were pups and they played too roughly. They are wonderful dogs NOW (well, Razor has passed but he was the BEST)...but as youngsters they were a handful and had to be corrected when too rough. Anyone who hasn't actually raised some pups up w/ young goats and seen what that can lead to....shouldn't be telling others they don't need seperated. I believe keeping unsupervised LGD pups w/ young goats is a recipe for disaster and anyone who didn't have a problem doing so....was lucky.

That is how you end up w/ problems....when the inexperienced try to tell others how to do things based on their opinions alone.

Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase. And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life. We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.

 

[Oakroot]

Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase. And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life. We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.

^This^ for any breed of dog in any situation.

 

[Queen Mum]

I respectfully disagree. My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has. In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out. She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and chased it off for three weeks running.) And she has been pretty good to keep other prey animals away from my goats, including coons, snakes, etctera - Successfully. She is a great LGD. She has the instinct for it and is good at it.

I don't recommend Huskies for LGD's because they are naturally prey dogs. It's a disaster waiting to happen as a rule. This one is an exception. BUT The exception goes to show that it is possible for dogs other than "bred LGD's" to be LGD's" This particular dog seems to have the temperament for it. I've seen LGD's of all sorts who are very good at it. Mostly in Australia.

It is a temperament thing. Not all dogs are good at it and not all dogs can handle it. AND some animals which are bred for it are lousy at it. I have seen Pyrs who are the worst LGD's ever. And some mutt dogs excel at it. And it is dog specific. Some breeds are better at it than others and size can be an issue but not neccesarily. It is a temperament thing and a training issue.

I definitely agree with Roll about NOT blaming the dog when things go wrong. People tend to not pay attention to the animals in the adolescent stage and not to be vigilant with their training at that point. Then when things go wrong they blame the dog. That always frosts my cookies. Animals do what comes naturally to them. LGD's are no exception. If you want them to guard your livestock you have to teach them to be good guardians. Not good playmates.

 

[Ownedby3alpacas]

An LGD doesn't have to be a specific breed and anyone who insists that it does is full of baloney. An LGD has to have a specific temperament and training, training, training. It should be raised from a pup around livestock. But that isn't a hard and fast rule either.

Some breeds are better than others but really the key is to train and work with the dog and do it from a very young age. I think you are on the right track. Work hard with that pup and work daily. You will know soon enough if it has the right temperament.

My LGD is a Siberian Husky. She started her career at age 8.

I respectfully disagree. My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has. In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out. She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and chased it off for three weeks running.) And she has been pretty good to keep other prey animals away from my goats, including coons, snakes, etctera - Successfully. She is a great LGD. She has the instinct for it and is good at it.

I don't recommend Huskies for LGD's because they are naturally prey dogs. It's a disaster waiting to happen as a rule. This one is an exception. BUT The exception goes to show that it is possible for dogs other than "bred LGD's" to be LGD's" This particular dog seems to have the temperament for it. I've seen LGD's of all sorts who are very good at it. Mostly in Australia.

It is a temperament thing. Not all dogs are good at it and not all dogs can handle it. AND some animals which are bred for it are lousy at it. I have seen Pyrs who are the worst LGD's ever. And some mutt dogs excel at it. And it is dog specific. Some breeds are better at it than others and size can be an issue but not neccesarily. It is a temperament thing and a training issue.

I definitely agree with Roll about NOT blaming the dog when things go wrong. People tend to not pay attention to the animals in the adolescent stage and not to be vigilant with their training at that point. Then when things go wrong they blame the dog. That always frosts my cookies. Animals do what comes naturally to them. LGD's are no exception. If you want them to guard your livestock you have to teach them to be good guardians. Not good playmates.

 

[mickey328]

I'd also suggest that if you can feed the pup a little of the goats' milk, it should help some.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

@Rolls
You make a great point about bonding that I completely missed. True LGD's will bond with their livestock and it is pretty rare that just any dog will bond with goats or sheep. You will see someone's dog bond with a cat and you do sometimes see them bond with other animals such as a goat or sheep but more times than not it is a single animal they bonded with, not a herd or flock as an LGD will do. So very good point there.

I also feel like IF you are willing to supervise / train (and accept the consequences when and if things go wrong), it's your business if you use a non-LGD breed....but please don't tell me it's 'better' or even 'as good as', UNLESS you have used a true LGD.

I agree. It's not my business to tell you what type of dog to use to guard livestock but I do not agree at all that non-LGD breeds can do even as close as good a job as a real LGD. They just don't. It goes back to what I said before. Go get a real one and you'll see what I'm talking about. I see that you agree with that too. Nobody should say that their dog is as good as an LGD because they've never had an LGD so they have no idea. LGD's are a different world.

SHK, I disagree w/ a couple things you said....Any LGD under 18 mos. can and will 'play' with their goats, because they're puppies and they're bonding to the goats / sheep / whatever....they play w/ them like littermates.

I disagree. I have never seen LGD pups play with the livestock and NEVER bite ears. If I had a dog that nipped or bit my goats even if they are pups or playing, that dog would be corrected immediately. I know the dogs play together but I would never let my dog do that to the goats. imo no matter what, even if the goat is mean, I will never tolerate my dog going after or acting aggressive to my livestock. My Kiko does really don NOT like Callie. They grew up on a farm where they had herding dogs. They would chase and bite the goats to herd them. Now they hate dogs. They have come around a little but still mean and dislike dogs. Callie submits tot hem and does everything an LGD is supposed to do with them. She does NOT bite, play, mess around, etc. with them at all. She will lie down and submit, she does not look them in the eyes, she does not challenge them. Those are all good. She does this even what Alana or Arianna just bulldoze into her and throw him to the ground. She doesn't bark at them or nip. Nothing. That is what they are supposed to do imo. Never do I want my dog playing and biting my goats. I don't care if they are young or old. Goat or dog.

Anyone who hasn't actually raised some pups up w/ young goats and seen what that can lead to....shouldn't be telling others they don't need seperated.

If you are referring to me I would like to let you know that I have raised my dog with young goats. The Pyrs here were also raised with young goats.
Are you saying to separate LGD pups and goats? If so, that's wrong. You may not put them in with the goats from birth but at 9-10 weeks they can go out with the goats. Of course you need to keep an eye out because the goats could hurt or even kill them as they are still very young. But yes, LGD pups should be raised with the livestock as young as they can be. That's how they bond.

regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase. And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life. We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.

How long is your definition of 'puppy stage'? Many dogs can still act like pups at a year old!! I'm curious to know how you define that.
And what exactly do you mean by "if it's set up to fail from the get-go."?


@Queen Mum

My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has. In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out. She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and chased it off for three weeks running.)

I do not mean to be rude but I'm sorry. No Husky on this planet is an LGD. Sure it may have killed a coyote. Maybe it killed a wolf-hybrid and maybe it chased a bear away once. When it comes down to it, a Husky is not an LGD. It is not breed for it and it could not roam large amounts of land and take on a pack of coyotes. It may be able to semi-protect your little farm but it could not guard 100+ acres everyday all day and take down what it needs to take down. It's a Husky. It just CAN NOT do that. Again, get a real LGD and you will see what I'm talking about. You really will!! LGD's are not soemthing you can understand until you've had some. You just can't.

It is a temperament thing. It is a temperament thing and a training issue.

I'm not really sure if it is a temperament thing. Sure that may help but does said dog have the power, strength, intelligence, and instincts for it? LGD's are LGD's because they were bred for just those things!! Just because a dog has killed something is likes the goats does NOT make it an LGD. It's not a training issue. LGD's use their instincts. No training needed. Sorry.

AND some animals which are bred for it are lousy at it. I have seen Pyrs who are the worst LGD's ever. And some mutt dogs excel at it. And it is dog specific.

Sure some LGD's are not as good. That would be a dog issue and not the breed issue. All true LGD's are great at what they do. There are a very few exceptions. It's not very often you find an LGD from guarding lines (not show lines) that is bad or 'lousy' at it's job. Be hard to find them. And no, it is not dog specific. It's BREED specific. LGD's and non-LGDs that people think are LGD's.

Some breeds are better at it than others and size can be an issue but not neccesarily.

Yes, some breeds are better than others. Those would be the LGD breeds. Size. Not an issue? LOL Really? So you're going to have 60-75 pound dog out in your field. What happens when you have a Mountain Lion or a Wolf come in? There is no way that dog takes either one of them down. They may have a hard time with even a coyote, and they're rather small animals. You MUST have a dog that is large or big, but is still agile and quick on it's feet. That is a must. We all know that German Shepherds are one of the fiercest dogs in the world. One of the best dog breeds out there no doubt about it, but not even the most fierce GSD could ever kill a large animal like a wolf. They sure have the bite power and the ability to kill but they would lose big time just due to the wolf's size. Same thing will any large predator. So you can have the best and fiercest dog in the world but in order to guard livestock it better have that size or it's going to end up dead. So yes, size is too an issue.

 

[babsbag]

Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase. And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life. We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.

My Pyr/ Maremma is 2 years old and I still have to supervise him around new kids. Not the ones that are born here, but ones that I buy. They are not his goats until I tell him otherwise. I use the same method with a new goat as a new chicken. The new goats get introduced, then the goat gets penned where the dogs can see her for a few days, then she gets introduced again with me there. By that time the dog has accepted her and ignore her, but the first introduction isn't so easy. My LGD will try and grab her by the neck or ear, I am not sure what his intentions are, but I don't want to find out either. He isn't growling, or vicious, but still not a behavior I tolerate.