Bruce
Herd Master
I wouldn't keep ANY 5 month old puppy in with the chickens without supervision. Might work if you had an adult LGD in there with it to keep it in line and save your birds.
Best internment for LGD puppy?
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misfitmorgan
Herd Master
You have to kind of pick your path on what methods you want to used based on your livestock, pup, area, needs and ultimate goal. There are many different thoughts and ways to train and LGD out there.
I think the part earlier in the thread with people telling you to keep the LGD with the birds was ment for when you are there with her not just all the time. Ideally though you dont really want her kept in a cage/kennel for hours a day if it can be helped, all puppies even LGDs get super bored being penned up for hours alone. You may want to re-think penning her up with the chickens outside the pen all the time when you are not home, she may grow to resent them. Maybe try letting her be in the house instead when you're not home if she can be trusted indoors. Don't skip the car training/car rides either or you will be very frustrated later on down the road.
Beekissed
Herd Master
Keeping a pup with chickens should only occur after the right training has ensued. I'd not just shove a dog...older or younger...into a coop and run or even free range, with chickens and expect they would know not to harm them.
Takes making sure the dog knows what you expect, how he is to act around the chickens and other livestock at all times. That goes for how he is to act around children, people you know, etc. It all takes instruction first, consistency without frustration and letting them make mistakes when you are there so you can correct them immediately.
Even if folks tell you they were raised with chickens, sheep, etc., don't trust it....that was THEIR flocks, which doesn't necessarily translate over to YOUR flocks.
After the right training, you should be able to expect even a 3 mo. old pup to be reliable with the chickens and sheep. They should also be excellent at recall under normal circumstances and even circumstances of high stress~just takes them a moment to switch gears. I think leave it and recall are two of the most important things to teach....both lead to correct responses to how to act around livestock.
If penning and/or tethering, it's also important to give them structured exercise(leash walk or walking at heel) for a bit to burn off energy prior to training on obedience, livestock, etc. each day. They have a lot of pent up energy when penned or tethered.
In the bustle of homesteading, I neglected load up and riding in cars on my last two, as these dogs seldom leave the place....they are needed on duty at all times. I wish now I had spent a little time on those, so with the new dog I'll be working with load up, wait in the car/truck, down, etc. He came to me with absolutely NO training at all, even with socialization with humans.
He had nothing and already 7 mo. old, so not a good thing. On the other hand, he hadn't really developed many truly bad habits, either, so he's coming along well. Currently tethered for about a month now, worked with daily on various training and I've seen a HUGE transformation in this pup~he has great recall now...came here with none at all, at heel off leash, leash walking, sit, down, wait(he's a little antsy on that one when it comes to food), leave it, up, collar(stand or sit calmly while collar is attached or detached from tether or leash), lying down while he waits for the command to eat, food removal or eating while children are near the food, "enough" on barking .
After his incident with the duck(when I trusted what the previous owners had said about his exposure to fowl.....resulting in the death and consuming of my best duck), he got My Chicken training and hasn't shown any further inclination to eat the ducks, even though they currently drink and manage to fly up to bathe in his water pan often.
Success will often be determined how much you want him to succeed and how much time you spend towards that goal. It truly doesn't take a lot of time each day but it needs to happen most days, even if the training is just 20-30 min. at a time. I try to mix training with the exercise time/feeding time/etc. so it's not a big deal.
Takes making sure the dog knows what you expect, how he is to act around the chickens and other livestock at all times. That goes for how he is to act around children, people you know, etc. It all takes instruction first, consistency without frustration and letting them make mistakes when you are there so you can correct them immediately.
Even if folks tell you they were raised with chickens, sheep, etc., don't trust it....that was THEIR flocks, which doesn't necessarily translate over to YOUR flocks.
After the right training, you should be able to expect even a 3 mo. old pup to be reliable with the chickens and sheep. They should also be excellent at recall under normal circumstances and even circumstances of high stress~just takes them a moment to switch gears. I think leave it and recall are two of the most important things to teach....both lead to correct responses to how to act around livestock.
If penning and/or tethering, it's also important to give them structured exercise(leash walk or walking at heel) for a bit to burn off energy prior to training on obedience, livestock, etc. each day. They have a lot of pent up energy when penned or tethered.
In the bustle of homesteading, I neglected load up and riding in cars on my last two, as these dogs seldom leave the place....they are needed on duty at all times. I wish now I had spent a little time on those, so with the new dog I'll be working with load up, wait in the car/truck, down, etc. He came to me with absolutely NO training at all, even with socialization with humans.
He had nothing and already 7 mo. old, so not a good thing. On the other hand, he hadn't really developed many truly bad habits, either, so he's coming along well. Currently tethered for about a month now, worked with daily on various training and I've seen a HUGE transformation in this pup~he has great recall now...came here with none at all, at heel off leash, leash walking, sit, down, wait(he's a little antsy on that one when it comes to food), leave it, up, collar(stand or sit calmly while collar is attached or detached from tether or leash), lying down while he waits for the command to eat, food removal or eating while children are near the food, "enough" on barking .
After his incident with the duck(when I trusted what the previous owners had said about his exposure to fowl.....resulting in the death and consuming of my best duck), he got My Chicken training and hasn't shown any further inclination to eat the ducks, even though they currently drink and manage to fly up to bathe in his water pan often.
Success will often be determined how much you want him to succeed and how much time you spend towards that goal. It truly doesn't take a lot of time each day but it needs to happen most days, even if the training is just 20-30 min. at a time. I try to mix training with the exercise time/feeding time/etc. so it's not a big deal.
frustratedearthmother
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We all have different ideas on what we think is right. You're going to have to learn to read your pup. If you've already put her with the chickens and it didn't work - then you do something different.
I think you'll figure it out - you've already shown how much you want to get it right. Hopefully, you and the pup will get on the same wavelength soon!
I think you'll figure it out - you've already shown how much you want to get it right. Hopefully, you and the pup will get on the same wavelength soon!
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babsbag
Herd Master
Even when my dogs were chicken safe I had to introduce new birds. They do know the difference between their chickens and "not their chickens."
Ridgetop
Herd Master
Bonding an LGD to chickens takes longer than bonding to small stock like sheep and goats. Chickens flap around and don't really bond with their protector like sheep and goats. Being told the LGD has been "with" or "around" poultry may mean it was kept in a yard near the chicken coop.
Even LGDs that are whelped and raised in a barn with access to sheep and goats are not reliably "bonded" not to chase lambs as pups. Young puppies up to 5 months old are not reliable with newborn lambs since they want to play with them. Playing between puppies means using teeth in play fights. Pups "playing" with the smaller lambs results in bloody ears and legs. You have to place the right age, size, and temperament sheep and goats with the appropriate age and size pup to make sure that they learn not to draw blood or hurt smaller lambs and kids.
Our first Anatolian came fully trained at 18 months. Our next Anatolian came socialized with goats, but with minimal people training. We continued his livestock training and while at almost 4 years old he still gets upset with lambing if there is noise or confusion in the barn (wanting to "rescue" newborns from their mothers) he has become much better. He is not as good with the mothers and newborns as our older bitch or the new Anatolian bitch we got at 10 weeks. He is however, the property guardian par excellence. The youngest Anatolian is now 13 months old and an excellent guardian.
She did bloody one particular newborn lamb which was her favorite. She tried to play with him at 3-4 months old and played like a puppy, resulting in small cuts to his ears and legs. At first we had confined her to the creep with access to the sheep and lamb pen, but after 2 incidences of playing and drawing blood, we locked her in the creep away from the lambs except when we were present. This was not satisfactory since when she was allowed in to the sheep pen she was very excited and tried to chase and play again. She was out in the am and pm playing with the larger dogs and for several hours a day when she was given access with the older dogs to the large field with the other ewes. After several weeks of keeping her locked away from, but adjacent to, the ewes and young lambs, we put her in the ram pen with 2 older ram lambs and an older ram, This worked perfectly since she was in a small field with sheep who she could not play with. in fact when she attempted to play with one of the rams, he knocked her down. Excellent training by a flock member just like training by her mother or another pack member would have given.
Putting puppies in with larger and older sheep and goats that are willing to discipline puppy behavior, WHILE NOT BEING ABUSIVE TO THE PUPPY, works extremely well since it is self-training, teaching the puppy not to try to play or bite at her bonded flock members,
Angel, at 13 months, lives in among her sheep, preferring to be with them at all times. The older 2 dogs are allowed into the house in the evenings for family bonding time while the flock is locked up at night. They will ask to go out after 1-4 hours but Angel prefers not to come in at all. In fact being brought into the hose is seen by her as punishment! She is still a loving dog with her humans, coming up for much loving when we are outside doing chores. She is even friendly (she is still a puppy) with strangers allowed in the yard by ourselves, but really prefers her flock.
Sadly there are few chickens that will be able to help in this area of training. Maybe tom turkeys or geese? My dogs feel that wild rabbits and birds are fair game for them, even taking down a wild peacock several years ago. I would not expect them to guard any poultry without intensive training. On the other hand, my Pyrs years ago, never went after the poultry which we had which was confined in a pen in the center of the property. We did not free range our birds much, but when we did (to eat fly maggots in horse manure, etc., the Pyrs left them alone. Probably because our house dogs had been trained to ignore the poultry, and we also had a large herd of goats and sheep at the time requiring their protection.
Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Remember that LGDs are less likely to bond with poultry, cattle, and horses since their main purpose for centuries has been to protect sheep and goats. Different breeds protected traveling herds (Pyrs) while others protected herds when the shepherds took them out each day to graze and brought them in close to habitations at night (Anatolians). Training an LGD to protect poultry is a difficult and time consuming job.
Each LGD will have different genetic makeup depending on its parents and ancestors, even littermates will not all be the same level of guarding behavior. Their selection by breeders for their use may differ. Thus, while all LGD breeds have livestock guarding background many generations ago, it may or may not have been selected for in recent generations. The LGD may not be appropriate for what you want guarded, some guard better on a small acreage place, others on hundreds of acres. Their effectiveness is also determined by your predator load and type, etc. It all depends on the dog's background and breeding. After that, the training the dog receives is most important. The widest mount of information you can obtain about your puppy, its immediate parents, grandparents, and what they guard, and the training that they received to make them effective guardians is necessary for you to understand how to train the new puppy.
Even LGDs that are whelped and raised in a barn with access to sheep and goats are not reliably "bonded" not to chase lambs as pups. Young puppies up to 5 months old are not reliable with newborn lambs since they want to play with them. Playing between puppies means using teeth in play fights. Pups "playing" with the smaller lambs results in bloody ears and legs. You have to place the right age, size, and temperament sheep and goats with the appropriate age and size pup to make sure that they learn not to draw blood or hurt smaller lambs and kids.
Our first Anatolian came fully trained at 18 months. Our next Anatolian came socialized with goats, but with minimal people training. We continued his livestock training and while at almost 4 years old he still gets upset with lambing if there is noise or confusion in the barn (wanting to "rescue" newborns from their mothers) he has become much better. He is not as good with the mothers and newborns as our older bitch or the new Anatolian bitch we got at 10 weeks. He is however, the property guardian par excellence. The youngest Anatolian is now 13 months old and an excellent guardian.
She did bloody one particular newborn lamb which was her favorite. She tried to play with him at 3-4 months old and played like a puppy, resulting in small cuts to his ears and legs. At first we had confined her to the creep with access to the sheep and lamb pen, but after 2 incidences of playing and drawing blood, we locked her in the creep away from the lambs except when we were present. This was not satisfactory since when she was allowed in to the sheep pen she was very excited and tried to chase and play again. She was out in the am and pm playing with the larger dogs and for several hours a day when she was given access with the older dogs to the large field with the other ewes. After several weeks of keeping her locked away from, but adjacent to, the ewes and young lambs, we put her in the ram pen with 2 older ram lambs and an older ram, This worked perfectly since she was in a small field with sheep who she could not play with. in fact when she attempted to play with one of the rams, he knocked her down. Excellent training by a flock member just like training by her mother or another pack member would have given.
Putting puppies in with larger and older sheep and goats that are willing to discipline puppy behavior, WHILE NOT BEING ABUSIVE TO THE PUPPY, works extremely well since it is self-training, teaching the puppy not to try to play or bite at her bonded flock members,
Angel, at 13 months, lives in among her sheep, preferring to be with them at all times. The older 2 dogs are allowed into the house in the evenings for family bonding time while the flock is locked up at night. They will ask to go out after 1-4 hours but Angel prefers not to come in at all. In fact being brought into the hose is seen by her as punishment! She is still a loving dog with her humans, coming up for much loving when we are outside doing chores. She is even friendly (she is still a puppy) with strangers allowed in the yard by ourselves, but really prefers her flock.
Sadly there are few chickens that will be able to help in this area of training. Maybe tom turkeys or geese? My dogs feel that wild rabbits and birds are fair game for them, even taking down a wild peacock several years ago. I would not expect them to guard any poultry without intensive training. On the other hand, my Pyrs years ago, never went after the poultry which we had which was confined in a pen in the center of the property. We did not free range our birds much, but when we did (to eat fly maggots in horse manure, etc., the Pyrs left them alone. Probably because our house dogs had been trained to ignore the poultry, and we also had a large herd of goats and sheep at the time requiring their protection.
Lots of good ideas here for you to try. Remember that LGDs are less likely to bond with poultry, cattle, and horses since their main purpose for centuries has been to protect sheep and goats. Different breeds protected traveling herds (Pyrs) while others protected herds when the shepherds took them out each day to graze and brought them in close to habitations at night (Anatolians). Training an LGD to protect poultry is a difficult and time consuming job.
Each LGD will have different genetic makeup depending on its parents and ancestors, even littermates will not all be the same level of guarding behavior. Their selection by breeders for their use may differ. Thus, while all LGD breeds have livestock guarding background many generations ago, it may or may not have been selected for in recent generations. The LGD may not be appropriate for what you want guarded, some guard better on a small acreage place, others on hundreds of acres. Their effectiveness is also determined by your predator load and type, etc. It all depends on the dog's background and breeding. After that, the training the dog receives is most important. The widest mount of information you can obtain about your puppy, its immediate parents, grandparents, and what they guard, and the training that they received to make them effective guardians is necessary for you to understand how to train the new puppy.
bethh
True BYH Addict
My
Our dogs will eat the eggs also. My husband solved that problem by taking a piece of a large dog crate that has openings large enough for the chickens to walk through and we put it up everyday when we let the chickens out. The chickens can get in and out but the dogs can't. Our eggs are protected, the dogs can't eat the chicken feed plus the chickens can still get in whenever they want. I'll try and take a pic tomorrow and post so you can see.
YourRabbitGirl
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Very unusual, they can be very active since they have a lot of play space. maybe your not giving them as much attention that they need? did you try playing with them?
Baymule
Herd Master
Haha, we have a hen that refuses to go back in the coop. Ever. She sleeps in the sheep's hay bale and made her nest in Sentry's dog house! 
Thanks a LOT Joy-Chicken for making Sentry an egg sucking dog! He'll stick his head in his dog house to see if she's done yet. I've even heard him "MIRF" at her, like he's telling her to hurry up before Mom gets the egg! Durn chicken!
Thanks a LOT Joy-Chicken for making Sentry an egg sucking dog! He'll stick his head in his dog house to see if she's done yet. I've even heard him "MIRF" at her, like he's telling her to hurry up before Mom gets the egg! Durn chicken!
Beekissed
Herd Master
Haha, we have a hen that refuses to go back in the coop. Ever. She sleeps in the sheep's hay bale and made her nest in Sentry's dog house!
My chickens were doing that too, Bay....the dogs would listen for the egg cackle and go running like it was the dinner bell...and it was. I solved that by placing a dog bed over most of the hay, then pavers over the rest. No where to nest, no where to lay.
