Breeding for Color Question

[Livinwright Farm]

Okay, so for breeding that male to the top female, your odds of getting solid buckskin or buckskin with a small white star here and there will be quite high.
With the second female, your odds of getting solid black or black/chocolate kids would be higher if you bred her to another black or black/chocolate.
Paired with that male, you stand the chance of getting buckskin w/ white spots, doberman coloration(cant recall the terminology), or you might even get chocolate brown to a nice mohagany with white, black, or both markings.

So if I breed him to my black doe I'll get anything BUT solid white! The only guarantee with this buck is four legs and two ears!

I can't afford to purchase a buck this year, so this little spotted fellow will be used. Next year I may be able to purchase a herd sire of my own.

Thanks Livinwright.

Sorry, but yeah, that's pretty much it. Even breeding white to white, unless you are talking Saanens, there is no guarantee of getting solid white kids... you could end up with caramel, red, or heavily dalmation spotted.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Typically it is the buck that determines wht the offspring look like.

That has not been the case on our farm.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

So if these are my girls.......

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/3869_p5290504.jpg

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/3869_p5290505.jpg

What if I breed them to this little guy? Any guesses?

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/3869_p8310555.jpg

He's got some freckles!

Okay, so for breeding that male to the top female, your odds of getting solid buckskin or buckskin with a small white star here and there will be quite high.
With the second female, your odds of getting solid black or black/chocolate kids would be higher if you bred her to another black or black/chocolate.
Paired with that male, you stand the chance of getting buckskin w/ white spots, doberman coloration(cant recall the terminology), or you might even get chocolate brown to a nice mohagany with white, black, or both markings.

Can you please explain what you're basing this on? I've never seen any research showing such a high degree of predictability in ND color. Even anecdotally I've never encountered such a high degree of predictability. I know your experience with NDs is limited so you must have some reference materials to share? There's one ND color/genetics website routinely referenced, but I don't recall that it discusses heritability in any hard-and-fast terms.

Phenotype and genotype are NOT the same thing, remember. I just had the perfect example born on my farm earlier this week. Dam is a light (classic) buckskin, sire is a broken chamoisee with roaning and moonspots: the kid is an unusual red/cream buckskin traceable to his maternal grandsire. Do either of the parents show red in their phenotype? Absolutely not! I was flabbergasted when he hit the ground! But my doe carries her sire's color genetics in her genotype. Breeding NDs is like Christmas morning every kidding- even experienced breeders just don't know what they're going to get. The genetics of color in NDs are just not that well understood yet. I'm sure some of the seasoned folks can back me up on that.

 

[Livinwright Farm]

Typically it is the buck that determines wht the offspring look like.

That has not been the case on our farm.

Interesting... could you share some pictures, or links to pictures, of the pairings(and their parents) and resulting kids for us? I am curious and would like to see where colorations are coming from.... recessive or dominant.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Actually, this doe actually did the same thing her last kidding- she is a light buckskin, was bred to a heavily moonspotted classic buckskin buck, and produced a chocolate silver buckskin doe kid. This color was easily traceable to the dam's paternal grand dam. But again, on the maternal side. Not to say that dam line color genetics are more highly heritable- her twin brother is the spitting image of his sire's color pattern. But it's another example where a) the sire did not determine color and b) the kid showed a coloration outside of both parent's phenotype.

A quick glance at my website will show you the dam (www.smithurmonds.com/sandy), last season's doe (www.smithurmonds.com/pony), and the buck kid born earlier this week (www.smithurmonds.com/goats_for_sale). The sire of the buck kid can be seen here: (www.smithurmonds.com/merlot). Although both kids' pattern is buckskin there are obviously other factors involved. Neither the chocolate nor red colors are expressed by either parent.

I'm not an expert on genetics by any stretch of the imagination. I just wanted to point out that a) phenotype and genotype are both going to contribute to color, so what you see may not be what you get and b) it is well-accepted that this subject is poorly understood. Those predicting heritability are far more confident than I!

 

[that's*satyrical]

 

[elevan]

Our Snickers is a ND / Pygmy Cross. Dam was a lovely peach color with cream spots ND and sire was a typical caramel pygmy.

This is what Snickers looks like:

IF sire determined color then Snickers should have turned out looking like a caramel pygmy. The breeder that I purchased Snickers from had a large quantity of registered NDs and registered pygmies. The breeding that resulted in Snickers was an accident. All of her ND breedings were a collage. None of those kids looked exactly like their sire or their dam.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Your Snickers is a classic buckskin. It seems like the buckskin pattern is pretty highly heritable- I have had a buckskin doe produce a solid kid before when bred to a solid buck, but by and large it seems like buckskins tend to produce buckskins in some form or another. But it's not the case 100% of the time.

 

[rascal]

Does anyone know if black is a dominant trait? My gut says yes, as one black buck gave us all black (or mostly) kids for the years we had him. Years later we're still getting black kids out of at least one black parent...

 

[Squirrelgirl88]

Actually, this doe actually did the same thing her last kidding- she is a light buckskin, was bred to a heavily moonspotted classic buckskin buck, and produced a chocolate silver buckskin doe kid. This color was easily traceable to the dam's paternal grand dam. But again, on the maternal side. Not to say that dam line color genetics are more highly heritable- her twin brother is the spitting image of his sire's color pattern. But it's another example where a) the sire did not determine color and b) the kid showed a coloration outside of both parent's phenotype.

A quick glance at my website will show you the dam (www.smithurmonds.com/sandy), last season's doe (www.smithurmonds.com/pony), and the buck kid born earlier this week (www.smithurmonds.com/goats_for_sale). The sire of the buck kid can be seen here: (www.smithurmonds.com/merlot). Although both kids' pattern is buckskin there are obviously other factors involved. Neither the chocolate nor red colors are expressed by either parent.

I'm not an expert on genetics by any stretch of the imagination. I just wanted to point out that a) phenotype and genotype are both going to contribute to color, so what you see may not be what you get and b) it is well-accepted that this subject is poorly understood. Those predicting heritability are far more confident than I!

So if I'm trying to breed for a more solid color and I have Nigerian Dwarf Goats, I might as well try to breed for a unicorn. I'd have as much luck. Is that the message here? It really goes so much deeper than what color the dam/sire and grand dam/grand sire were.

So you do like any "parent" you just pray for healthy babies and take what you get!