Bruce's Journal

[Southern by choice]

I must have been really blessed in my dog life, as most of my dogs have not been excessive barkers...most were extremely quiet. The only one I had here that did bark excessively I didn't have for very long...he was rehomed to the kind of place he was used to, an indoors home...no amount of training could help him adjust, he was already 4 yrs old and set in his ways. Big dog, afraid of the dark as he had never been outdoors at night in his whole life, so he barked at everything.

Ben has taken his cue from Jake and most of our nights are VERY silent, no barking at all. Even when there is barking, it's a short cycle and doesn't go on and on. Two times Ben has settled into a rhythmic bark that I considered excessive and stopped immediately when told to do so. Since then he's not repeated that kind of bark cycle. No barking in the day except, again, a few short woofs at a passing deer but nothing above a three woof, then ended. I just don't tolerate it, so it doesn't happen. Jake never barks in the day.

Jake has always been really silent. The older GP/Lab mix female I had had a tendency to WANT to bark frequently at times, but also would shut up when told to do so and finally, she learned what I considered barkable and became pretty quiet as well. the dog I had before those two was also silent most of the time.

I don't agree with the thought that farm dogs cannot do what LGDs can do...when all you need them to do is guard livestock of some kind on small acreage, they do it very well. The goal, I believe, is to ward off predators...if that is done, then they can do what a LGD can do in that kind of setting. In some settings, no, they won't live and work only with the flock, but Bruce's situation doesn't call for dogs working large acreage and guarding large herds.

From my experience, in regards to barking in a small acreage setting, you get what you will settle for. They CAN be trained to keep the barking to what is only necessary. If they cannot, there are dogs who can.

Large acreage and large flocks, I'd venture to say there are more predators wanting what is being guarded, a larger area to cover, so more need for barking.

Farm dogs can do what farmdogs do but you are wrong they are not LGD's, LGD's do what LGD's do. Some LGD's that cannot cut it as LGD's can be farmdogs. A great farmdog is a very valuable animal.
Not all environments require a LGD, I agree. Many settings do not require a LGD and a farmdog would be adequate. But predators to include numbers and type are also considered.
I have worked with and trained far too many dogs and breeds and your statement simply is not true in regard to barking. Yes you can train dogs to not nonsense bark but at the same time humans cannot see or hear as the dogs do and you have no idea what is out there that is setting a dog off. Currently we have a fox right on the line of our two fields. Guess when it likes to be out. YEP about the middle of the night. The dogs ARE going to bark and they will continue to bark as long as it is there. They should, that is why I have them.
Acreage has nothing to do with it, it is predator load. Over time as threats reduce by the presence of the dogs there is far less issue. After the puberty phase in the dogs and they learn an acorn dropping isn't an issue most LGD's are not constant barkers. When they bark it is because something is there and it is required.

 

[Beekissed]

I have worked with and trained far too many dogs and breeds and your statement simply is not true in regard to barking.

My experience has been different, so I'll respectfully maintain that a dog CAN be trained to not bark at every little thing. I've done it. It happens on my land. It's true enough here where I live. I've had LGD breeds and I've had farm dogs and they all do the same thing....they both keep the predators away and sometimes kill them.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Bruce]

I got up at 3 AM today. Merlin was barking. A lot, to the point it sounded like he was getting hoarse. I went out, he was in the south area and the alpacas were out by the solar arrays, covered with snow. Merlin came to me, I had my flashlight out to try and light up the field toward the woods some to "suggest" to whatever was out there that it wanted to be somewhere else. He wasn't barking nearly as much, I think I was the "extra" dog that gave him a break. The flashlight only projects about 150' and that is 'light' not "I can see what is out at 150' light".

I could see Merlin's tracks around the entire perimeter of the fence line. Not surprising because from the bedroom I can tell where he is both by volume and direction and when I was in the bedroom he was clearly not staying in one location. If he is in the NW corner, the big barn blocks the sound some making him sound farther away than he is. If he is in the barnyard on the barn side of the pond, the sound comes straight up between the barns to the bedroom and he sounds much closer than he is relative to the actual difference in distance to the NW corner. If he is in the SW corner, he sounds closer than when he is in the NW corner even though he is farther away.

At one point Merlin was south and I was behind the solar panels (less snow falling on me!) and I scanned my flashlight north through the barnyard and barely beyond. I saw what I thought was a pair of red dots beyond the north fence. Of course the light was reflecting off the falling snow making anything in the distance difficult to make out. This was at the limit the light projected so I walked through the barnyard north. The red dots stayed put, I start thinking maybe I'm nuts because wouldn't an animal leave if a light was shining in its eyes?? Maybe not, we all know the phrase "deer in the headlights stare". I got to the old fence (about 5' from the new fence) and very clearly sitting on a rock not more than 75' from me was a fox. Looking right at me and my light. It didn't move for several minutes then walked off east. Merlin never saw that.

I may be wrong but I think this was a case where I was under dogged even for the small area I have. It is hard to defend something, even vocally, when you are surrounded. Can't be at both ends of the area at the same time. So while I probably needed another dog, we know that wouldn't work out well. 2 dogs barking at night, even if never at the same time, wouldn't improve the situation with my wife

@Goat Whisperer is right and I will reiterate. I don't think Merlin barks to bark, doesn't bark at falling leaves, other dogs, people. RARELY barks during the day. We have had nights where he barked a lot and nights where I heard nothing all night long. The fact that I saw a single fox out, in the falling snow, suggests there was a lot more out in weather when I would have thought the critters would be hunkered down. Of course I thought the alpacas would be as well since on colder nights (it was just about freezing last night) they have been inside the barn even though there was no snow falling. There is a lot more activity out there in the dark than I know. But Merlin knows. The night I was out with him and heard the 3 coyote packs, he last barked around 1:15 AM, spent the rest of the night sleeping in the barn opposite the chicken coop. He had been there at 1 AM as well but shot out the alpacas' door triggered by something I didn't hear.

I am going to create a poll regarding seeing light reflected off animal's eyes. Not quite sure where to put it though. Perhaps a mod like @Latestarter can make a suggestion.

 

[CntryBoy777]

I know none here has been a witness to my very poor attitude, because I quit posting before it was shown. However, I do owe @Bruce @Southern by choice and @Goat Whisperer a very sincere Apology for my meager attempts to bring a solution to the problem at hand. In my attempts to suggest a solution, I was not "Seeing or Realizing" the real issue and was just inflaming it, merely by changing the voice of the irritating Barks. If another dog was introduced, it would still Bark, and if it didn't, then the desired result would not be realized. Also, a lesser animal that wouldn't be disruptive to the predators, possibly would be destructive to the intended animals to be protected. I really am sorry for my lack of absorbing the real "Issue" and the unwitnessed immaturity on my part. I do hope you all can forgive me for that and I will certainly strive to be more alert to the problem being confronted by the one "Posting" and not inflaming it.

 

[Southern by choice]

Yes you can train dogs to not nonsense bark but at the same time humans cannot see or hear as the dogs do and you have no idea what is out there that is setting a dog off.

My experience has been different, so I'll respectfully maintain that a dog CAN be trained to not bark at every little thing. I've done it. It happens on my land. It's true enough here where I live. I've had LGD breeds and I've had farm dogs and they all do the same thing....they both keep the predators away and sometimes kill them.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The point is you cannot see what they see, so if they are barking there is something there. I did not disagree with nonsense barking... generally if a LGD is barking alot then the predator load is such that warrants it.

 

[NH homesteader]

@Southern by choice do you have information regarding farm dogs vs. LGD'S? How their jobs differ, management, etc? I'm trying to think about my dog needs!

Sorry not trying to Hijack!

 

[farmerjan]

I have very little experience with any type of LGD having only been exposed to a pair of marema's on a farm that I used to farm sit for when the owner went away. He knew nothing except book learning and the dogs were acquired as puppy's and they got to where they killed the lambs and roamed and it was a disaster. The owner has died, the sig other has health issues and does not live there, the "new farm manager" is a joke and the one dog stays penned or tied and the other stays within the fenced field. I feel sorry for the dogs but am not in a position to do anything as they are not being "abused". So that is my experience, all not very promising... We considered a LGD with our sheep, but since we put them out to pasture it is not always convenient to see them daily so that wouldn't work.
We have since used both donkeys, which hate coyotes, and LLamas. Both have been VERY GOOD at keeping predators away. Had one donkey that didn't like the little lambs but was fine with the yearling ram lambs.
Understand, we raise White Texas Dall sheep. Look like bighorn type sheep. Semi wild breed, the rams get to 200 lbs and have magnificent heads. We raise them for their trophy heads and sell to hunting preserves. Yes to be hunted. So crucify us for it. They are not pets, the rams have dislocated my 6'6" son's shoulder and collarbones. But we just like them. The ewes are raised closer to home and handled more, but have several that are faster than deer and are very flighty overall. All that said, they are still sheep and are subject to predators. Coyotes and dogs running loose are the biggest problem, but lately we have had a bear being a pain and hopefully he will be disposed of by a hunter....
Both the donkeys and the llamas have done exceptional at keeping the coyotes away. I watched a pair of female llamas of ours deal with a pack of 3 dogs one day. The one female took the sheep up on the hill, the other stayed down near the road/fence and everytime the dogs would change direction she was there. These dogs were accompanying a woman who was jogging and she made no effort to call them out of the field and I just happened to be going up the road to check on another pasture when I came upon this scene. I jumped out of the truck with my .22 when she came up and said those are my dogs and I told her in no uncertain terms that if she didn't call the d***d dogs and get them right now they were dead. She thought it was fascinating that the llamas were doing what they were doing. Well so was I, inasmuch as they were doing their job, but REALLY......The one llama got in a good kick to one of the dogs, it came running out of the field howling like it was dying, the other 2 dogs came to her and the llama went up the hill to the other one and they stood and watched over the sheep and us down at the road. The woman was very concerned about her poor dog and I told her that I would be reporting it to the dog warden and the county sheriff's office and that if I ever saw anything of those dogs again in the field, they were dead.
We have the right to shoot any dog harassing livestock and it believe me if any of those 3 were even in the field they would be "harassing" the sheep. PERIOD end of story. It was a very impressive display of their protecting...We have one llama in each field with the different groups of sheep and have not lost a lamb to predators in years. The llamas don't make noise, won't keep your wife up at night, and you can shear them for their wool so are not completely useless. They also eat what the sheep and alpacas do so don't need a separate feed. Ours do not protect the chickens, but also do not chase them either. We have to keep them penned and when they are out loose, they are subject to predators....mine get locked in at night, and I use small moveable "chicken tractor" type coops alot. Don't have much trouble with anything digging underneath and since they get moved all the time, predators don't get "comfortable" with learning a way in so much. A farm/family dog keeps that to a minimum anyway.

 

[Bruce]

I know none here has been a witness to my very poor attitude, because I quit posting before it was shown. However, I do owe @Bruce @Southern by choice and @Goat Whisperer a very sincere Apology for my meager attempts to bring a solution to the problem at hand. In my attempts to suggest a solution, I was not "Seeing or Realizing" the real issue and was just inflaming it, merely by changing the voice of the irritating Barks. If another dog was introduced, it would still Bark, and if it didn't, then the desired result would not be realized. Also, a lesser animal that wouldn't be disruptive to the predators, possibly would be destructive to the intended animals to be protected. I really am sorry for my lack of absorbing the real "Issue" and the unwitnessed immaturity on my part. I do hope you all can forgive me for that and I will certainly strive to be more alert to the problem being confronted by the one "Posting" and not inflaming it.

You have NOTHING to apologize for. And if you don't take it back I'll again!

I appreciate everyone's input. You never know when someone's thought, on the mark or off, might spark an idea in someone else. Plus, if none of the offered alternatives suit my needs, people following the discussion might learn something new or consider a different path to what they had in mind.

For instance: My new south fence line is all cattle panels BECAUSE @farmerjan suggested using them to go around the tree and pile of huge rocks on the lot line. If I had done it with field fence I would have needed to plant 4 more 6" posts, each braced in 2 directions plus additional bracing on the SE and SW posts. I would still have needed 2 posts braced in 1 direction each even if I had used the panels only to go around the tree as she suggested to solve the immediate problem of having to brace posts even when the section of stretched field fence is short. Those 2 posts would have been dug into locations where I will buy lunch for everyone who has been participating in this discussion if there aren't a lot of "impossible to remove without heavy equipment" rocks. I'm 99% certain that the pile of rocks around the tree came out of the ground when the road that runs up the south side of our property was built. Dumped somewhere convenient - just outside the roadbed and side drainage ditch. And they had to dig that ditch which means every rock they pulled out was buried somewhere nearby.

In my opinion, nothing good comes from a single mind.

 

[Bruce]

@Southern by choice do you have information regarding farm dogs vs. LGD'S? How their jobs differ, management, etc? I'm trying to think about my dog needs!

Sorry not trying to Hijack!

@Southern by choice and I discussed this and my specific situation before I got Merlin. I don't mind if she wants to answer your question here or in a new thread in the LGD forum. I think the latter would be better though because others with the same question would be more likely find it.

 

[NH homesteader]

I'll go start a thread!