Buck with Poor Body Condition, Anemia, Flaky Skin

[greenfamilyfarms]

I cannot seem to figure out what is going on with our 2-year-old Nubian buck. He is just not "bouncing back" from what I originally coined to a bad winter.

Here are his symptoms:
Weight loss
Flaky skin - mainly on rump, neck, shoulders, hips
Anemia - white eyelids, white gums
Appetite depression - will eat, but not with vigor
Had slight bottle jaw for just a day about 2 weeks ago
Diarrhea for the past 3 days

What I have given him thus far:
1. 2 doses of Ivomec injectable 10 days apart. Injected Sub Q at dosage rate of 1 mL per #40 pounds. I gave him 4 mLs. (He was thin, but not gastly underweight)
2. When that didn't seem to help, I gave him Valbazen orally at rate of 1 mL per #10 pounds. I gave him 15 mLs. (He lost more weight)
3. At the same time as Valbazen, I gave him a whole Copasure pill.
4. Yesterday he developed diarrhea, so I have him Sulmet and added 3 TBSPs of Molly's herbals to his feed. I'm going to do this for 3 days.

What I haven't done: a professional fecal exam.

I know his symptoms point towards a heavy worm load, but what would you do if he was your goat?

 

[20kidsonhill]

In all honesty he has the same symptoms some of ours had this winter. We were diagnosed with having liver problems believed to be from too much copper from copper bolusing.

Your other options is liver flukes and with your location that is possible.
Did you treat with Ivermectin Plus at all? Ivermectin plus given as an injection every 10 days.

But every symtom you listed is a symptom of liver problems.

 

[babsbag]

I cannot seem to figure out what is going on with our 2-year-old Nubian buck. He is just not "bouncing back" from what I originally coined to a bad winter.

Here are his symptoms:
Weight loss
Flaky skin - mainly on rump, neck, shoulders, hips
Anemia - white eyelids, white gums
Appetite depression - will eat, but not with vigor
Had slight bottle jaw for just a day about 2 weeks ago
Diarrhea for the past 3 days

What I have given him thus far:
1. 2 doses of Ivomec injectable 10 days apart. Injected Sub Q at dosage rate of 1 mL per #40 pounds. I gave him 4 mLs. (He was thin, but not gastly underweight)
2. When that didn't seem to help, I gave him Valbazen orally at rate of 1 mL per #10 pounds. I gave him 15 mLs. (He lost more weight)
3. At the same time as Valbazen, I gave him a whole Copasure pill.
4. Yesterday he developed diarrhea, so I have him Sulmet and added 3 TBSPs of Molly's herbals to his feed. I'm going to do this for 3 days.

What I haven't done: a professional fecal exam.

I know his symptoms point towards a heavy worm load, but what would you do if he was your goat?

I hope that was a Copasure for goats and not the big one for cattle.

 

[Southern by choice]

Definitely get a fecal first... then depending on the results....

You may want to consider testing for Johnes Disease

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/johnes/

It is more common than people think.

Diarrhea and bottle jaw are classic symptoms of more end stage.

Weight loss despite eating well and the other symptoms... I'd test and save myself a lot of stabbing in the dark as well as alot of money spent to not find the route cause.

Yeah worm loads can cause alot of issues but if this has kind of been progressive it is worth the testing.

 

[20kidsonhill]

Definitely get a fecal first... then depending on the results....

You may want to consider testing for Johnes Disease

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/johnes/

It is more common than people think.

Diarrhea and bottle jaw are classic symptoms of more end stage.

Weight loss despite eating well and the other symptoms... I'd test and save myself a lot of stabbing in the dark as well as alot of money spent to not find the route cause.

Yeah worm loads can cause alot of issues but if this has kind of been progressive it is worth the testing.

x2
I forgot about johnes, when our herd started doing poorly we had several animals tested this winter to rule that out. Thankfully it seems to have ended up being more from us over doing things than a johne's. Our vet was none to happy to hear about us copper bolusing.

 

[Southern by choice]

I just noticed the poster is from NC! YAYAYAY!

Rollins Lab in Raleigh is awesome and it is with the state which is a real bonus because you can have the testing done for a few dollars.

I am a real science/data geek. I also have a small herd... I think my girls coats look lacking after our winter weather. May be copper, but I have learned one thing from reading so many peoples experiences... so many times "overdosing" can cause the same effects of what you think needs treatment. If that makes sense.

I am not one to "stab in the dark" I find it is costly and has no real benefits. Rollins lost its Chemist years ago so I am having bloodwork sent to PA for a mineral Analysis. I figure if I need to make any changes I want the data. It is not that expensive and you don't need to do every goat... if they are all eating the same thing and are all together the analysis can tell you about everyone. Costing far less by targeting certain minerals etc.

Johnes can be done at rollins and that is really important as more and more goats are positive and it takes a long time before it becomes evident.

Everyone's goat management will be slightly different and people should do what works for them. I would just say to take caution at how much and how many different things you are doing all at once. That can also be very stressful on the goats system. In the end it may all get "fixed" but you never know which thing was "the" thing that was what was needed.

 

[greenfamilyfarms]

I just noticed the poster is from NC! YAYAYAY!

Rollins Lab in Raleigh is awesome and it is with the state which is a real bonus because you can have the testing done for a few dollars.

I am a real science/data geek. I also have a small herd... I think my girls coats look lacking after our winter weather. May be copper, but I have learned one thing from reading so many peoples experiences... so many times "overdosing" can cause the same effects of what you think needs treatment. If that makes sense.

I am not one to "stab in the dark" I find it is costly and has no real benefits. Rollins lost its Chemist years ago so I am having bloodwork sent to PA for a mineral Analysis. I figure if I need to make any changes I want the data. It is not that expensive and you don't need to do every goat... if they are all eating the same thing and are all together the analysis can tell you about everyone. Costing far less by targeting certain minerals etc.

Johnes can be done at rollins and that is really important as more and more goats are positive and it takes a long time before it becomes evident.

Everyone's goat management will be slightly different and people should do what works for them. I would just say to take caution at how much and how many different things you are doing all at once. That can also be very stressful on the goats system. In the end it may all get "fixed" but you never know which thing was "the" thing that was what was needed.

The buck is separated from the does right now, but he is normally housed for most of the year in with our does.

Is it a blood test for Johnes? If so, I'll need to call my local vet pronto to see if he can do a blood draw. Hubby is an EMT-Paramedic and could do the blood draw, but I'm sure they want it handled a certain way before sending to the lab.

The copper bolus we used on him was from Santa Cruz. Four gram bolus. He's only had 2 of them, spaced a year apart.

I fear Johnes. We have just 5 goats and lots of pasture for them to graze, but they still have "access" to each other's feces.

 

[greenfamilyfarms]

I found it! $15 for a Johnes fecal sample test. I'll give them a call tomorrow to be sure, but hopefully we can get this resolved so I can take action if it is Johnes.

 

[Southern by choice]

I am doing the blood samples... I think it is more reliable and since we are doing the mineral analysis it is just as well.
The mineral analysis for me anyway allows me to look and see exactly what may be needed. I am very leery of just giving copper.
We have very high iron in our water which can cause binding problems.

It is ( the blood) going to PA $35 sample and $20 fee. The thing is I don't have to do all my goats and that is a lot of good info for very little IMO.
The blood test from Rollins is less than the fecal. (For Johnes) I would do johnes and CAE at the same time.

It does sound like there are some other things going on of course and I really hope you get to the root of it all. I just know living in NC and having our state lab is a real benefit. Everything is very cost effective. Seeing as you all can do your own blood draw, call Rollins and ask how it needs to be packed, what tube..red, purple etc.. I am too lazy... so I just have it all done for me.

I pulled this part out of an article but also provided the whole link.

Molybdenum reduces copper uptake in a goats diet, increases copper excretion and forms an insoluble, useless compound. Low dietary zinc and iron levels and high calcium levels accentuate copper toxicity. Conversely if zinc, iron or sulfur are excessive in a diet, copper will bind to them. Iron and zinc compete with copper for binding sites during absorption in the body. A major key to diagnosing copper deficiencies or toxicities requires knowing what the rest of the diet consists of. A goat owner may be blaming a problem on too little copper, when the real problem might be high molybdenum in a forage or high iron or sulfur in a goats water source.

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/87-3/coppers_role_in_goat_health/

Can you post a picture of the goat?

BTW- don't get too discouraged... you can only do what you can do.

 

[greenfamilyfarms]

I am waiting to hear back from the Rollins lab about some specifics I needed answered before we attempted blood draws ourselves. This is just the kick in the butt we needed to get them CAE and CL tested as well. Anything else you would suggest testing for?

In the meantime, Pee Dee RAN to greet me today and was flagging his tail and baa-ing. He hasn't done that since he was a kid. Either he's lonely or feeling better... or some of both. Yesterday was day 3 of the herbals in his feed.