CL :(

[newbiekat]

Gingerbread... she's my goat I brought home and kidded that night with triplets. We have had her since the beginning of April... Well, two days ago I noticed a lump in her cheek, looked like she had a bunch of cud she was chewing on. Yesterday I noticed the lump was still there and she was not chewing. It felt hard, so DH and I decided to take her to the vet. Vet felt around, decided to do an ultrasound, said it was close to the surface, definitely an abscess, decided to pull some puss and put it under the scope. She said it was definitely CL (Caseous Lymphowhatever)... I asked if we should send bloodwork in to test, she said there was no need. Her suggestion was to cull. I don't know much about the disease other than EVERYONE is scared of it... The vet said you can drain it, and treat it, but she suggested to keep the goat isolated, and if the abscess burst all of the other goats can become exposed. We had good timing because the abscess was close to the surface (I'm guessing that means it was ready to burst soon)... So instead of isolating her (we dont really have the facilities for that), or pawning her off on some other poor soul, we decided to put her down. I plan on having the rest of the herd blood tested once I get my red top vials in the mail. I'm freaked out now. I feel like a terrible goat mommy. I allowed all my goats to become exposed to CL

Was that the right choice? What is so scary about CL? Does that mean my herd may have it now? What about her babies? Is it transmitted through her milk? Or birth?

 

[Farmin' Girl]

I don't have the answers to your questions, but I am sorry to hear you're having to experience this.

 

[Southern by choice]

Depends on whether it really was CL and if it was whether it was internal or not. The titer levels are important.

If not internal and it had not burst on the premises than the occurrence would be extremely rare.

It is good to get your herd tested anyway.
I would add CAE and Johnnes to the CL testing.

So sorry for your loss.

Here is a link of CL sites and also sites that are mistaken for CL
http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/#.U50wefldWt8

 

[newbiekat]

Southern- Would the titer levels be visible under the scope in the puss the vet pulled? Or in the blood?

If not internal and it had not burst on the premises than the occurrence would be extremely rare.

OH GOOD! That's such a relief to hear that!!

Here is a link of CL sites and also sites that are mistaken for CL
http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/#.U50wefldWt8

I actually looked at her site when we were figuring out what to do with Gingerbread. I thought the site of the abscess was on the cheek, not quite as high as near the ear, so I didnt think it was CL... But when the vet took the sample she said yes... This is a newer vet for us so I'm not so sure of her yet. Do you think she gave incorrect information?

It is good to get your herd tested anyway.
I would add CAE and Johnnes to the CL testing.

I have been looking online, but can't seem to find any answers. Would you happen to know where I can get all of that testing done? I would like to draw my own blood and send it in. Also, should I test all of my goats? Even the ones under a year? I've read somewhere that the CL test isn't as reliable in goats under 8 mos old.

Thank you!!

 

[Southern by choice]

The titer levels are done through serum testing.
As far as your vet being able to determine under a scope, yes, it is possible to look at under a scope.

As far as age... many say not before 6 months but 8 months is better.

In our state we use Rollins lab (North Carolina). Rollins does in-state testing for very little. $1.50 for CAE and $1.50 Johnnes, they do have to send out the CL to UC Davis (California). UC Davis charges us $14.50 as we are out of state.

We submit one vial of 6cc's in a redtop tube and Rollins takes what they need and they overnight the rest to UC Davis, we do have to pay a $20 overnight fee. UC Davis bills us, as does Rollins. I like that Rollins does all the packing and shipping it out for us.

Whoever you use you will need to get specific instructions as to amount, kind of tube etc. For us we are an hour away from Rollins so we generally pull the blood and keep all the vials upright, refrigerated, and take them in that day or the next morning. We don't have a centrifuge. (I am looking for one though, reasonably priced ones are hard to find- easier to do HW checks on the dogs with the centrifuge)

Since you are in Kansas look up your state veterinary division and see what lab comes up.

Just found these...

http://www.ksvdl.org/
http://www.ksvdl.org/submission-forms/
http://www.ksvdl.org/pdf/submission-forms/Sheep-Goat-Camelid-Submission-Form.pdf

There is a good deal of controversy when it comes to CL and CL testing and titer levels. That is for another time though.
Please come back and let us know what you find out about testing, a great resource for others in your state looking for a place to test!

A word about Johnnes- The Elisa test ( not direct fecal) is a sensitive test and you can get false positives or Susp (Suspect) easily so don't panic if that happens.
Suspect often means inconclusive- for whatever reason the test was not reasonably conclusive either way. Some things that can affect the results... pregnant goat, recently kidded, a goat on anti-biotics, or even use of de-wormer.
I thought I'd share that because it does happen, usually they will ask you to submit another sample 3-6 weeks later. If you come up positive 2x then I would do a direct- fecal. It takes 4 months for the results. It is the most accurate method.
Vets often forget to tell their clients this and then there is that panic, stress, worry, fear etc.... all that could be eliminated if they just said from the beginning that there are factors that can throw the test.

 

[newbiekat]

I am looking at the testing costs, and it seems here in Kansas it is a bit more expensive than NC to test for these things... It seems they are $11 for CAE, and Johnne's, and then 14.40 for CL (they send it out to Texas A&M).

They have several CAE tests it seems like, CAE Virus & Ovine Progressive Pneumonia (OPP)- cELISA, and CAE Virus- AGID. What's the difference? Do I need the OPP being it is an Ovine related disease?

For the Johnne's Disease, she asked me if I wanted the screen or titer. Remembering your comment, Southern, I mentioned the titer. She quoted me $14.40 (per animal) + $26.00 ($10 for processing per animal and one time $16 shipping fee), so total would be 24.40 per animal + a one time $16.00 shipping fee. Should I also be asking about a screen? Or does it matter? It is called the Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis (Johnne's Disease)- cELISA.

Thank you about the information about the false positives, that would definitely have freaked me out.

Also, do these prices seem normal? I've never had testing done so I'm not sure what they run. I'm looking at around $50 an animal for these tests... Is that normal? I feel like it's a lot.

ETA: She also mentioned serum separator tubes, I've found these on Amazon, would they work?

 

[Southern by choice]

You may want to consider just sending them to Rollins.
Out of state fees are 2x what in state is. So that should be $3, $3, and the $14.50 for CL that they send to UC Davis.

They are also very helpful in answering questions and overall assistance. They can tell you exactly what tubes to use and how much serum they need. I would call them and simply ask them you want to have your X number of goats tested for CAE, Johnnes, CL... they will conect you with exactly who you need to speak with and walk you through the what's what.

Here is a link to their fees schedule
* look at pg 2 #8
I think it will end up costing you less in the end.

http://www.ncagr.gov/vet/ncvdl/FeeBrochure.pdf

 

[OneFineAcre]

I've experienced a false positive with the Elisa for Johnnes, but our vet told us immediately it was most likely a false positive.
Rollins did a second test an "acid fast stain" test that is more accurate and it was negative.

 

[newbiekat]

Southern- I think you're right, it may be cheaper that way. I wonder what FedEx charges would look like... Guess I'll have to make some calls tomorrow! Thank you!

OFA- What is the Acid Fast Stain? Is that also a blood test? Would it be best to request that one first instead of the Johnne's ELISA?

 

[OneFineAcre]

The ELISA and Acid Fast Stain are just different lab procedures. Both are done with blood samples.

The Acid-Fast Stain
Bacteria with an acid-fast cell wall (see Fig 1) when stained by the acid-fast procedure, resist decolorization with acid-alcohol and stain red, the color of the initial stain, carbol fuchsin. The genus Mycobacterium and the genus Nocardia are acid-fast. All other bacteria will be decolorized and stain blue, the color of the counterstain methylene blue.

Fig 1.

The Elisa test is cheap. It's cheap because it is easier and you can run an entire tray with 100 samples at once. This acid fast stain is not I think they are $30 each. Each one has to be done individually and has multiple step and is very time consuming.

I think the better approach is to do the Elisa and don't panic if you get a positive. Do the more expensive test only then.

At first I was worried that if you get false positives then how accurate is the Elisa if negative ? The lab said not to worry, that was not the case. The ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immunosorbant Assay) also uses colors but to detect for antigens. So, other things can cause the presences of antigens and that's why you can get false positives.