Correct Way to Train LGD *Updated 2 years later

[KinderKorner]

Alright. I need some answers. I've heard so many different things and I'm just not sure what is the correct way to train my Anatolian anymore.

He is 6 months old. (I thought he was older, but nope I just counted. WOW.)

I got him at 2 months and as per advice from the breeder I put him directly in with the goats. Everything worked great. He was the sweetest little pup and very submissive. He never played too rough with the goats, and he loved them. If he got too hyper or was running around one of the older does would head butt him gently and knock him down. Which gave him a good respect.

He walked on a lease fine, listened to scolding, and if you said "back off" he would drop anything and move back and expose his belly. All good. I was so impressed.

Well around 4 or 5 months old he grew bigger than the goats. And he was now rowdy and no longer intimidated by the does.

Instead of the sweet pup, he started chasing, tackling, and mauling all the goats who were now terrified and running from him making it worse.

He stopped listening to verbal cues, and I tried using loud voices such as bagging paper rolls together or clapping which worked for a while, then it only started working every once in a while.

He got to the point where he would listen and stop when I was around, but as soon as I went inside I could see him chasing the goats over and over.

I took him out and put him in with my old horse until he settles down.The fences are up against each other, so Kuzco is right with them, just can't get to them.

While everyone is happy now, I'm not sure where to go from here.

Kuzco the dog is no longer timid. If the horse tries to eat his food he will even threaten and snap at him. And more than once I've had to break up a fight between them.

I know it's just his age, and he will grow out of it. But I want to make sure I do the right things at this time, so he matures and learns correct behavior.

I've tried walking him in with the goats and he does fine. A couple weeks ago I was going to be outside for a while, so I decided to let Kuzco interact with the goats and see his reaction. I played with him a bit to wear him out. Then I put him in the goat pen.

Almost instantly he began chasing them. This was no longer harmless chasing, but full out running and tackling. I was in the pen with him and I was yelling and telling him to disengage but he just ignored me. It was a circle of the goat running for his life, Kuzco running after him, and me chasing as fast as I could to grab his collar. I thought he was going to kill the goat right there in front of me. He tackled the goat, and I managed to snag his collar.

But he didn't settle down. I flipped him over and pinned him to the ground. But he just rolled around, and scratched, and thrashed. I had him by the neck and he was tossing his head so much and biting at me. He drew blood. And even though I was sitting on him he nearly outweighs me and I didn't think I could hold him much longer. Luckily my mom was visiting and she heard me screaming. She ran to my aid and also helped me pin him down. It took both of our full strength to keep him down. At this point I held his mouth closed to prevent him from biting me anymore. We held him until he settled down.

I was so upset and angry. I'm ashamed to say I hit the dog more than once with a stick. (This was while I was chasing him, not after I caught him.) He didn't even flinch or look up form his pursuit, at that point it was out of desperation because I honestly thought he was going to kill the goat. Oddly his chasing wasn't aggressive, it was playful. But much more powerful than I've ever witnessed. Even when he bit me it wasn't aggressive. He was just spazzing out and thrashing.

Since then I've been a little wary around him. I felt his strength that day, and while he's never been aggressive to me, I have enough sense to know if he went after an animal and I tried to stop him and he turned on me I don't think I could restrain him.

Where do I go from here. He's the sweetest pup. But he can get riled up and play too rough. Do I just leave him with the horse for a year until he matures and then slowly reintroduce him with the herd.

Do I muzzle him and put him back in with the goats sooner?

I've heard so much conflicting information.

How to I get his respect back? Right now he barely listens at all anymore. Yesterday when I had to put a new collar on him he did the roll and thrashing again and it hurt me. It's completely disrespectful, but I don't know the correct response. He isn't afraid of verbal cues anymore.

 

[KinderKorner]

I think he will make a great dog one day. Sometimes I'm so impressed by him. He is so different than any dog I've had, his personality is so unique and amazing. And he loves the goats, I don't even think he realizes he is hurting them.

But he has got to learn some boundaries and respect. I'm just not sure how to handle a dog who doesn't listen. Kuzco has such a mind of his own.

Even the basics like sitting and coming when called are a 50/50 if he will actually listen now.

Since the incident he hasn't been as loving and friendly to me. If my husband and I are both outside he will completely ignore me now and go to my husband. Even if I have a treat or I'm calling him. I think I hurt his feelings, or it's just a lack of respect.

 

[Southern by choice]

There are many things I see here.
First- your breeder gave you bad advice and this is the beginning of the issue.
second- LGD's need training- the imprint stage is from birth thru 16 weeks. Breeders often place their dogs at 8 weeks. Big mistake, the reason is they need parents stock to teach proper behavior.
third- training, human interaction and training plays a big part.
Now for the rest-
~ I often hear " I know it is a pup and will out grow it". This statement is not true. Often the role of alpha was not established and therefore the dog decides what they will do and what not. You can train this out of him but they do not just outgrow chasing biting. You will need to work with him.
~Dogs that have been put in the field and breeders that teach they must bond with the goats and never humans are missing it completely. These dogs are fully capable of bonding with their humans and their livestock. This idelogy came from when LGD's were first brought over and land was 1000 acres or more and humans were not traveling with the herd/flock. It was meant to prevent dogs running off. This is no longer farming in America, now we are looking at smaller farms and LGD's that are in a much different environment.
~ Training and bonding that develops between you and the dog is how the dog learns to and always will respect you.
~ The breeder ... most do not assess pups for the environment they are going to and have the attitude all my doogs are fine... maybe however more often than not the new owner goes through a great deal of working with a dog because it wasn't properly matched, or reared.

Yelling no and noises are not the best form of correction for a pup that chases or nips. It is an immediate neck to back roll, must be swift fast and forceful... everytime.

The fact your dog put his mouth on you already says he doesn't respect you, although I believe he may know this wasn't good.
At 6 months old he should be fully trustworthy with the livestock.

You will need to retrain him. I would recommend a training collar with tone pulse and shock. The collar must be used properly, not just shocking the dog. Use the minimal amount of correction possible.

The thing that really disturbs me in this is when you tried to flip him he freaked out and put his mouth on you. As a trainer, this is a serious problem to correct, and raises many flags. He has already determined you are not alpha.

A few things to consider... does he do this at the same time of day? Do you take him out for out of field "playtime"?... this helps dogs with excessive energy to get that energy out productively and not in unacceptable ways.

Without knowing how he was raised up and what "training" he has had it is difficult to say where things need to change. I would however not allow this I'm staying away from you and going to Daddy thing.

I am so sorry you are going through this, it breaks my heart for you and your LGD.

If you have some very large powerful bucks start there put him in with the bucks.

 

[KinderKorner]

~ I often hear " I know it is a pup and will out grow it". This statement is not true. Often the role of alpha was not established and therefore the dog decides what they will do and what not. You can train this out of him but they do not just outgrow chasing biting. You will need to work with him.
~Dogs that have been put in the field and breeders that teach they must bond with the goats and never humans are missing it completely. These dogs are fully capable of bonding with their humans and their livestock. This idelogy came from when LGD's were first brought over and land was 1000 acres or more and humans were not traveling with the herd/flock. It was meant to prevent dogs running off. This is no longer farming in America, now we are looking at smaller farms and LGD's that are in a much different environment.


Yelling no and noises are not the best form of correction for a pup that chases or nips. It is an immediate neck to back roll, must be swift fast and forceful... everytime.

The fact your dog put his mouth on you already says he doesn't respect you, although I believe he may know this wasn't good.
At 6 months old he should be fully trustworthy with the livestock.

You will need to retrain him. I would recommend a training collar with tone pulse and shock. The collar must be used properly, not just shocking the dog. Use the minimal amount of correction possible.

The thing that really disturbs me in this is when you tried to flip him he freaked out and put his mouth on you. As a trainer, this is a serious problem to correct, and raises many flags. He has already determined you are not alpha.

A few things to consider... does he do this at the same time of day? Do you take him out for out of field "playtime"?... this helps dogs with excessive energy to get that energy out productively and not in unacceptable ways.

Without knowing how he was raised up and what "training" he has had it is difficult to say where things need to change. I would however not allow this I'm staying away from you and going to Daddy thing.

I am so sorry you are going through this, it breaks my heart for you and your LGD.

If you have some very large powerful bucks start there put him in with the bucks.

I know he "just won't outgrow it." While I think he will calm down and mature with age, I agree that correct training at this stage is very important. Which is why I'm asking for help.

I also don't believe that LGD can't bond with humans and goats. Kuzco loves me just as much as he loves the goats. And I try to play with him everyday.

I use verbal cues first. But I also do the back roll if the verbal doesn't work. Which is what has alerted me. The back rolls aren't working anymore. He just struggles now.

It doesn't matter what time of day. I often see him playing by himself several times a day. He has several toys, and we give him bones and things to chew on to keep him occupied. That is one of the first things I tried when he started playing with the goats. He will throw one of his toys and go "fetch" them, or he will just run around crazily goofing off. It's pretty funny. We also try to walk him at least every other day, but the past 2 weeks we have been really busy so he's only got a walk a couple times.

I'm not sure if I can get my hands on a shock collar. I don't have the cash to buy one right now. But I'll look into it, and maybe ask around. My friends had a rowdy lab and they still may have his shock collar.

I also don't have any large bucks at the time. The goat he actually tackled was a buck. My big buck is at my mothers, but I may see if I can borrow him. They have never seen dogs before, so they are usually just scared and run, which is what happened with this buck.

Kuzco has also began invading my space. When I'm playing with him he will mouth me as he runs past, or he will be jumping around and knock into me.

I may work with him again today and just try to reestablish my dominance. Maybe I need to be a little more forceful and intimidating with my flipping. I can go inside his pen and if he mouths me, I can do the back roll.

What do I do though if I flip him and he thrashes? I'm completely at a loss of what I can do to stop the behavior.

 

[Southern by choice]

Well it sounds like you have done some great things with him so that is a real bonus!

I know he is getting very large and very hard to roll.
Can you describe the average day with him from am to pm and where he is overnight?

Yes, no mouthing at this point would be best.
If he thrashes YOU MUST WIN! This can be very difficult so weigh this option carefully. If you cannot win don't do it. Putting him in a lockdown and shaming him everytime you see him for a day or two often gets a message across.

At his age he is coming into sexual maturity, which can present it's own set of issues.

Can you describe exactly when he started chasing, was it gradual, overnight, slow, playful at first, etc
...and also exactly how he does it.
When he is doing this what is his goal? Can you tell?

Lots of Q's I know, honestly the Anatolians are usually alot less likely to behave this way. Pyrs are usually the ones misbehaving!

 

[KinderKorner]

Well it sounds like you have done some great things with him so that is a real bonus!

I know he is getting very large and very hard to roll.
Can you describe the average day with him from am to pm and where he is overnight?

Yes, no mouthing at this point would be best.
If he thrashes YOU MUST WIN! This can be very difficult so weigh this option carefully. If you cannot win don't do it. Putting him in a lockdown and shaming him everytime you see him for a day or two often gets a message across.

At his age he is coming into sexual maturity, which can present it's own set of issues.

Can you describe exactly when he started chasing, was it gradual, overnight, slow, playful at first, etc
...and also exactly how he does it.
When he is doing this what is his goal? Can you tell?

Lots of Q's I know, honestly the Anatolians are usually alot less likely to behave this way. Pyrs are usually the ones misbehaving!

I'll give the rolling and shaming a try tonight.

I feed him every morning at about 8.30 and pat his head. Then I'm at work until about 4 pm, and he just stays with the horse. Husband used to walk him nearly everyday when he got home at 5pm, but now with the time change it's dark by that time. So he's only been walked on the weekends. Husband usually just pets him and gives him a treat in the evening now. I try to go in and play fetch with him when I get home a couple times a week. He has a house to sleep in, but he prefers to sleep outside in the open. Even if it's raining. I've seen him sleep under the horse shelter once or twice, but I've never seen him in his own house.

When he was living with the goats he slept with them inside their barn, curled up against "Tippy" one of my wethers. Who even now is the only goat who isn't scared of him.

He started chasing about 6-8 weeks ago. It was gradual, with him becoming more and more less submissive to the goats. Getting in their space, snapping playfully at them. The chasing really kicked off when I brought in a new goat who hadn't been around dogs. She was afraid and ran from him. He chased her in fun, and then started chasing the others as well within a few days. If he "catches it" he just romps on it, and mouths and slobbers on it. Just general mouthiness, not tearing into it or anything. He just wants to play honestly.The last time with the buck is the only time I've ever seen him grab ahold of the back and actually knock it down. Usually he would just run up and mouth at it's sides, not actually grab them.

I picked Anatolians specifically because all the pyrs I've met have been more playful and misbehaving. Just goes to show you it's not all just about breeds.

 

[Southern by choice]

I'll give the rolling and shaming a try tonight.

I feed him every morning at about 8.30 and pat his head. Then I'm at work until about 4 pm, and he just stays with the horse. Husband used to walk him nearly everyday when he got home at 5pm, but now with the time change it's dark by that time. So he's only been walked on the weekends. Husband usually just pets him and gives him a treat in the evening now. I try to go in and play fetch with him when I get home a couple times a week.
The break in routine can be part of the problem, routine is good and over time a break in routine and changing it up is good, sudden interruptions can cause some issues.
He has a house to sleep in, but he prefers to sleep outside in the open. Even if it's raining. I've seen him sleep under the horse shelter once or twice, but I've never seen him in his own house.
When he was living with the goats he slept with them inside their barn, curled up against "Tippy" one of my wethers. Who even now is the only goat who isn't scared of him.

LOL only one of our LGD's will seek shelter. Goofy dogs!

He started chasing about 6-8 weeks ago. It was gradual, with him becoming more and more less submissive to the goats. Getting in their space, snapping playfully at them.

So at 4 months-16weeks? what do you mean when you say getting in their space? Snapping playfully... how? Snapping where? face, body feet, while they were still or moving? Did he bark at them while doing this? As in Play with me? Did he get in front of them and bark in the face? Body position? When he did this how was it handled?

The chasing really kicked off when I brought in a new goat who hadn't been around dogs. She was afraid and ran from him.

How did you intro her? Did you ever work with the goat? Was she in an adjacent pen prior to being introduced or just automatically put in?

He chased her in fun, and then started chasing the others as well within a few days.

What did you guys do when this happened, how did the dog respond? What did he display to you that suggests it was for fun?

If he "catches it" he just romps on it, and mouths and slobbers on it. Just general mouthiness, not tearing into it or anything. He just wants to play honestly.
This isn't how LGD's play, and that is my concern. This kind of behavior is more typical of many herding breeds, and dogs with high prey drive. These are prey drive characteristics.
The last time with the buck is the only time I've ever seen him grab ahold of the back and actually knock it down. Usually he would just run up and mouth at it's sides, not actually grab them.

If you have ever seen a team of LGD's practice "play" with each other you will notice one dog generally will chase the "predator" and grab a back leg to pull back and slow the animal down, the other team member will come up over the back and grab. This is to crush the spine. The male is usually the one to finish off. The female is usually quicker and gets there first , hence grabs the leg. This is a big concern. LGD's simply don't practice with the livestock, ever. Knocking the buck down would be a serious infraction. Was the buck mating with any does? Is it possible that breeding was going on and the dog did not understand.

I picked Anatolians specifically because all the pyrs I've met have been more playful and misbehaving. Just goes to show you it's not all just about breeds.

You are so right! I hear so much about toli's and pyr's and usually I just shake my head. Lgd's in general really...

Do you have an ajacent run or something small but not too small where he can be put beside the goat fencing? I understand you needing to seperate him of course, but I do not think putting him in with the horse is going to be of any benefit and may be very counterproductive in the end.

When he was a pup from 2-4 months you said he was pretty submissive, what did he do to show submission? What was his body language.

 

[Southern by choice]

you will need to expand your quote ... did not know it would do that so the post is in the quoted section as well. GRR

 

[treeclimber233]

When I first got my LGD I was also told to put him in with the goats immediately. At around 6-8 months he was larger than the goats and mouthing them around the neck and shoulders. I put some tabasco sauce on the tips of their hair. That behavior stopped immediately.

 

[Southern by choice]

That's a first! Never heard of that one before! Glad it worked!