Correct Way to Train LGD *Updated 2 years later

[KinderKorner]

Kuzco was introduced slowly to the new goat.

When he was younger he wouldn't get too close to the goats. He was respectful to their space, because if he touched them they would butt him. As he got older he started grabbing their legs gently. Such as he would hide under their feeder where they couldn't reach them, then when they came to eat he would mouth their legs. He snapped mostly at their legs, or rumps.

I don't understand why there is a problem keeping him with the horse? I think they like each other, even if they fight sometimes. While Toby the horse is eating, Kuzco will curl up in his hay pile so he can be close to him. It's rather sweet.

He was submissive because if a goat would look at him with head lowered as a challenge he would back off and roll over. Same if I scolded him.

The other day I did go in his pen. The second he tried to mouth me I flipped him to the ground rather firmly and held him down. He did thrash and scratched me up pretty good.
I let him go when he calmed down and whimpered.

As soon as I let him go though he jumped up and starting coming at me even more, I thought for a second he was going to jump and knock me down. So I instantly flipped him again.

I think he seemed to take the message the second time because he calmed down considerably and keep a little distance between us instead of crowding my space.

I played with him a little and when I saw him coming towards me to mouth me I spoke in a harsh tone and he instantly dropped to his back.

He didn't try it again.

The next day when I went to feed him as I approached his bowl he flipped onto his back again. I hadn't said anything.

So a little progress. I think if I keep re establishing my dominance he will quit challenging me. Then we can start working with the goats again.

 

[KinderKorner]

Once I think he is ready I can move my biggest goat, a wether into the horse pen with him. (The wether is supposed to be in with the horse anyway, but I had to separate him from Kuzco.)

I think he would be less likely to put up with rough behavior, and I can work on them one on one, without fearing that Kuzco will hurt some of the littler goats or my does.

I think this time I will tie Kuzco on a light long leash. That way the goat will be able to get away from him, and I won't have to fear that he will hurt it before I could get to them is he starts chasing again.

Oh course it will be a while before we are that far.

And firstly I will just walk Kuzco in with the goats on a tight leash and correct any bad behavior and praise the good. This is for Kuzco, and so the goats become more confident around him as well.

I'm hoping we can work through this, and he will be a great guardian yet. He really can be a great dog, he's just going through a rough patch.

 

[Southern by choice]

I think with your diligence and perseverance he will be able to overcome his faults.
Sounds like you are doing a great job with reminding him of his manners!

As he got older he started grabbing their legs gently. Such as he would hide under their feeder where they couldn't reach them, then when they came to eat he would mouth their legs. He snapped mostly at their legs, or rumps.

how did you work with this to correct it?

I don't understand why there is a problem keeping him with the horse? I think they like each other, even if they fight sometimes. While Toby the horse is eating, Kuzco will curl up in his hay pile so he can be close to him. It's rather sweet.

I bet it is a beautiful picture too! It isn't so much of a problem but ultimately you want him with the goats for protection. The concern is that, too long and he may "bond" only with the horse. Anatolians are very "bondy" I think much more so than many pyrs, maremmas. Once an anatolian deems something His/hers it IS his/hers.. period. LOL!

I have been meaning to ask... what kind of goats do you have? I don't remember.

For working with the larger herd, if you have a smaller area... like a lot or quarantine area, take a few does in with Kuzco and work with him in the smaller environment. This will help you to be right there for any misbehavior and it also forces the goats to take a stand if they don't have the room to run.

There is clearly progress and hopefully you are encouraged.

My one male pyr decided to jump up and say Hi... farm partner started this (I was not happy)... anyway the dog is huge and so when I grabbed his collar... he helps me in his correction... he flails himself down :/ and gives the look... Love you mommy!

 

[KinderKorner]

how did you work with this to correct it?

Anytime he played rough with the goats I instantly said "Kuzco! Back off!" in a authoritative voice. Usually (well used too) that was enough for him and he would stop and move away from them and roll onto his back. If he didn't listen and continued, I would flip him.

I bet it is a beautiful picture too! It isn't so much of a problem but ultimately you want him with the goats for protection. The concern is that, too long and he may "bond" only with the horse. Anatolians are very "bondy" I think much more so than many pyrs, maremmas. Once an anatolian deems something His/hers it IS his/hers.. period. LOL!

I have been meaning to ask... what kind of goats do you have? I don't remember.

For working with the larger herd, if you have a smaller area... like a lot or quarantine area, take a few does in with Kuzco and work with him in the smaller environment. This will help you to be right there for any misbehavior and it also forces the goats to take a stand if they don't have the room to run.

I do worry a little that he will bond with the horse more than the goats. But he still loves them at this time. Their manger is close to "his" fence, and he will lay up against the fence to be close to them. He also has about a dozen holes dug where he tried to squeeze into their pen. I've got them blocked up, but I am worried one day he will dig under while I'm gone and hurt one. I will make sure to begin talking him for walks in their pen for supervised visits right away. So he continues bonding with them.

I have Kinder goats. They are a Pygmy and Nubian cross. So they aren't tiny, but they are smaller than normal sized goats. They weigh around 100 - 120 pounds. And about 24"-26" tall.

I do have a smaller pen I can set up, so I can start working with them. Good idea!

 

[KinderKorner]

When he was in with them, before the chasing started he was great. When they went out in the pasture, he followed them even as a little puppy, and always stayed close to them. I was impressed from the very beginning.

Even now he is still protective of them. If the cats climb through the window into the goat barn he will bark at them when he can't see them anymore. They are fine in the pasture but as soon as they go inside and they aren't visible anymore he will barn until they come back out.

Or yesterday we drew blood samples and moved goats around. They were all crying and hollering. He paced the fence and was on edge. When my mother left with a goat in her car that was screaming of course from being taking away from her friends Kuzco chased the car down the drive way, (inside his pen) growing and barking. I almost thought he was going to jump the fence to go after "his baby."

So he does have some guarding instinct in there. He wants to protect his goats, but it's like he doesn't understand that they need protected from him.

 

[Southern by choice]

Well he clearly has his instinctual guarding abilities! That is good news!
As a pup when he first started, and I only share this for others (nothing you can do about it now), first time "no"... 2nd time flip each and everytime. Usually within 3-4x max... it is permanently nipped in the bud.

Your Kuzco ( i love the name by the way) is obviously very smart and has good instinct... just a little misguided at the moment.
I like working with a 30 ft training lead, however, when they get too big and too much weight a 30 ft lead can put you on the ground when they "take off" . When working with him right now, put him on the ground and really get in his face. Of course praise is even more important.

 

[CentexSweetheart]

So you seem like you're figuring it out now, but I thought I'd just mention a few things I've picked up while working with dogs. (I haven't worked with LGD's specifically so I could have this all backwards, but I have several years experience working in kennels, shelters, and as a self employed dog care provider, I thought I'd at least say something and if you already knew that, or it's not right for LGD's then you just wasted five minutes reading a post from a newb that doesn't know what she's talking about.) Anyways, I've helped people with their pet dogs, and I was thinking, if you'd like there are a few things you can do to give him a better understanding (in his language) that you are the alpha.

Firstly, when you're being assertive and scolding or trying to call him off and he's ignoring you, what octave are you speaking in? Dogs don't speak human, they judge by our tones and inflections how they should react to whatever comes out of your mouth. So if you speak in the deepest voice you can, to him you should sound bigger badder and in charge.

Second, I understand you can't always have your attention on him when you're tending flock, but if you can catch him getting ready to do something wrong, and "warn" him before he does it, you might have an easier time getting the message across if he goes ahead and goes through with it. Best way I've found to do this (I usually did this to stop a dog fight before it started, the kennel I used to work in had community play yards even for the bigger dogs and sometimes the brattier ones would try to crown themselves king). If I saw a dog getting ready to challenge another I'd put myself between them, and square up to him. If he attempted to move around me, I would block his path, and make a low "buh" sort of sound in my throat to better get their attention (it sort of mimics a growl) so they knew I was in charge, and it wasn't going to happen on my watch. If they continued to try to ignore me, then it was time to remove the instigator from the yard, for a little time out. So it's not fool proof, but most dogs got the message the first time.*

Third, when you accompany him in or out of any enclosure, who goes first? Even if he's on leash, you should be the first one through every door (or gate). The alpha literally goes first in every aspect of pack life. The closest he should ever be to in the lead is at your heels. On a similar note, when you feed him, make him sit before you set the bowl down, and make him wait until you give him permission to eat. I always rattle my dogs food around in the bowl and try to make it look like I'm eating my fill first, to remind him that I'm the alpha, every morning. (It works for my dog, he whines like he's worried he won't get any).

Fourth, I'm sure it's hard when you're worried you're giant dog is going to maim or kill one of your little ones, but stay as calm as possible, tiny subtle changes in your body language can tip your dog off to the fact that you're anxious. It'll make him anxious and he won't know why or what to do, which can easily cause the situation to escalate, which may be what happened the one instance you mentioned where he actually seemed to be aggressive.

Two other small things, if you play tug-of-war or anything similar, never let him win. If he's too strong, let it go and walk away like you don't want it anymore, and if he always seems to win, I would recommend not playing at all anymore. The other thing is while he's still young, another way to correct him (similar but much less dramatic than y'alls backflip technique) is to quickly and sharply grab at his snout, ears, top of his head, scruff, or hind quarters, basically you're using your hand as his mother would use her mouth to tell him to cut it out.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but I hope it's at least somewhat useful. I know they're little things, that seem trivial, but if you can incorporate even just one of them, it may surprise you.

*also I feel I should probably mention, there was always at least one other kennel worker in the community yards with me, I would never recommend standing between two dogs about to go at it, if you're alone, and definitely not when you don't know the challenger and challengee. I was familiar with the dogs that stayed at the kennel, and I always always had back up.

PS kudos on the flipping thing. I imagine as long as you keep that up, it should do wonders for reasserting your dominance. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it was silly, I totally agree with it, I was just saying that my physical scold technique seems small in comparison.

 

[Southern by choice]

@CentexSweetheart really liked your post and for the pet world all you have recommended are right on!

LGD breeds are a little different in how you play, train and work with them. I share this with you as you clearly have a passion for working with dogs! A few things about LGD's that will help you to understand these breeds better....

Two other small things, if you play tug-of-war or anything similar, never let him win. If he's too strong, let it go and walk away like you don't want it anymore, and if he always seems to win, I would recommend not playing at all anymore.

Playing tug of war with a LGD breed is never recommended. This promotes unwanted behaviors in the livestock guardian. As well as ball throwing/fetch type activities.
If I was working with a GSD in Schutzund they ALWAYS get to win. Training for different purposes and individual breeds there are different rules so to speak.

The other thing is while he's still young, another way to correct him (similar but much less dramatic than y'alls backflip technique) is to quickly and sharply grab at his snout, ears, top of his head, scruff, or hind quarters, basically you're using your hand as his mother would use her mouth to tell him to cut it out.

These are not typical techniques for the LGD, to the LGD this is challenging and promotes mouthing and biting. For some LGD's that are having a problem with prey drive (undesirable quality in LGD) it will exacerbate the problem. These are the techniques in which the LGD uses to take down it's prey so it is promoting that behavior, they will do it more as this is play... some lgd's depending on age find this to be "striking" at them which they do not do well with. Can also make them handshy.

The nature of the LGD is very different from all other breeds. I hope you one day (I read your post about your future farm) get to experience these incredible amazing stubborn pig-headed intelligent majestic dogs!

 

[CentexSweetheart]

Thanks for the pointers I'll keep them in mind. As I said in the post (I think... I know I meant to) I was just mentioning a few of the ways I knew to assert dominance over a pet dog. I figured they were probably at least a little different, but with as much as I've seen you post about LGD training yourself, I figured you'd be around shortly to tell people not to listen to me if I was wrong (and you did!) haha.

And I do look forward to the day I'll be able to work with them as well. Thank you so much for the correction I really do appreciate it. It really shows me I have a lot more research to do before I'm ready to dive in.

 

[Southern by choice]

Thanks for the pointers I'll keep them in mind. As I said in the post (I think... I know I meant to) I was just mentioning a few of the ways I knew to assert dominance over a pet dog. I figured they were probably at least a little different, but with as much as I've seen you post about LGD training yourself, I figured you'd be around shortly to tell people not to listen to me if I was wrong (and you did!) haha.

And I do look forward to the day I'll be able to work with them as well. Thank you so much for the correction I really do appreciate it. It really shows me I have a lot more research to do before I'm ready to dive in.

Oh please don't take it that way. If you ever have the privilege of owning a working LGD you will see just how much your current training abilities are applicable! You will use many of your observation techniques and training skills, but will learn to modify them for the LGD breeds. They are working dogs, but not like most working breeds. You will be amazed at also how different these dogs are. I always say they really are their own species! I am amazed daily with these dogs, never worry about my livestock and always know that I can trust these dogs to know what to do and when to do it. No one really owns a LGD... they "own" you, they have this incredible way of changing your life. When they get injured or hurt it is devastating. The loyalty of these dogs is unsurpassed. I look forward to your journey into farming and livestock, it is an adventure for sure!