Court convicts raw milk farmer on appeal

[Ms. Research]

We have laws the Government both local, county, state and federal and they choose which ones to enforce. Hmmmm.... So which law are they going to enforce this week?

See there is no forethought. Government changes to their benefit. Never what they are supposed to do...represent the people.

 

[Queen Mum]

civil disobediance is one way to draw attention to the laws that need changing. it takes courage, or desperation, or foolishness, or maybe a mix of all three. some folks are willing to take a risk of sustaining the specified punishment to make a statement and elevate the issue. I'm married to such a man, he'll stand on his principles even if there are consequences, because he believes what's wrong, even if supported by laws, needs to be fought, not yielded to.

sure there are other methods, and those methods should be deployed as well. however, sometimes disobediant people are necessary to make things change.

Here, here!

sometimes one needs to test the law to make a point. the folks willing to do so are warriors, and my hat is off to them. I hope to not need to be one of them, but believe me, I've thought about it plenty, because I'm married to a man who's done it. he has my backing 100%, even though there are real personal and financial consequences. I love him in part because he is a man of principle, with the fortitude to fight for what he believes in. he's a warior, former special forces, so he knows about putting his butt on the line. as a warrior's wife, let me just say that many folks may benefit when others are willing to risk pain and damage because they're acting on principle.

First of all Thank your husband for his service to all of us as a military man.

had Rosa Parks, and Rosa alone, disobeyed the law, we would never have heard of her and who knows how much longer it would have taken for the laws to change. if one man sells raw milk and is convicted, and then we all wait around while the laws slowly grind through the process of change, if they ever do... well that's one way to get there (maybe get there, or maybe not). but what if everyone who had raw milk to sell, sold it, and everyone who wanted raw milk, bought it... at some point it becomes a question of will they arrest and prosecute us all? or will the laws get the attention they deserve and be changed? sure, in the process, some folks will pay the price for their lawlessness. change is not always bloodless (metaphorically speaking.)


it's a thing to contemplate.

and before you think I'm just a counter-culture revolutionary type, I'm not. I think most civil disobediance is unfocused, feel-good BS of no particular use, destined to resulting in nothing but bragging rights for those who want to feel like revolutionaries.

Before following like sheep, watch who you are following. Hitler was one such idiot! Think before you act.

some things, however are worth fighting for, both inside the official channels and outside them.


Just the opinion of a warrior's wife.

I LOVE your thoughtful analysis.

 

[elevan]

We are talking about the right to purchase and sell raw milk - not the oppression of a race of people.

My view on the 2 is very different - as pertains to this discussion (Raw Milk), there are ways to change laws without breaking them first.

 

[CYGChickies]

We are talking about the right to purchase and sell raw milk - not the oppression of a race of people.

My view on the 2 is very different - as pertains to this discussion (Raw Milk), there are ways to change laws without breaking them first.

X2

 

[that's*satyrical]

Ah but such rights being oppressed and ignored eventually lead to the oppression of a group of people be it by race or other means.... And civil disobedience hurts no one besides the one being disobedient which is what makes it heroic.

 

[elevan]

This topic is about RAW MILK and the laws surrounding it - we need to keep it to that discussion.

 

[that's*satyrical]

That is part of the discussion the guy was convicted for civil disobedience surrounding the sale of the raw milk. Where are we off topic?

 

[zzGypsy]

We are talking about the right to purchase and sell raw milk - not the oppression of a race of people.

My view on the 2 is very different - as pertains to this discussion (Raw Milk), there are ways to change laws without breaking them first.

this is true...
and...
it's all on a continuoum.
the oppression of a race of people is on the extreme end - but both are essentially about the individual's right to control their own lives.

for me, the issue of *selling* raw milk is an ecomonic one - the right to pursue a business, make a living, in good faith, without undue interference by government. an *extremely* important issue, in my estimation.

however the right to *buy* raw milk is one of control of what will go into one's body, so I see it as on the same continuoum as civil rights, abortion, enforced vaccinations, the ability of public schools to medicate kids without parental permission...

If I deem it best for my health to consume raw milk, but am prevented from doing so by misguided and overly parental laws, that is the government interfering with my right to control what goes into my body. THAT I have an even bigger problem with than the government's interference in the right to conduct legitimate commerce. Sure, goverment does it all the time (drugs, et.al. which I have opinions about, but are not the point here). however, that doesn't make it proper, or constitutional, or morally correct.

in NYC (IIRC) they've passed laws restricting restaruants from serving foods with trans fats. Some CA municipalities are trying to do the same thing. to this I say "NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS". same for raw milk. I believe all of these things are in the same territory, all off them are government overreaching, and that IS a primary issue, even if you have no interest in the raw milk or transfat subject itself.

every year, the CA papers list "some of the most important" laws implemented and going into effect. those editions list a few dozen of the "most imporant" of many hundreds, or sometimes more than a thousand new state laws that have been passed for the year. the vast majority of these are increased restrictions, not decreased controls. THAT is where I see the "process of changing laws" at it's most effective - there is no comparable list of hundreds or even dozens of laws that have been repealed or made less restrictive. if the part of the process that limited government behavior worked as well as the part that limits personal freedoms, I'd be much happier about working within the system, and much more hopefull of it's potentiial to produce good results.

sadly, I'm not seeing that in action. so I'll stick with my opinion on the need for some people to sometimes make a louder noise, and applaud their courage for doing so even if it comes at great personal expense.

 

[that's*satyrical]

We are talking about the right to purchase and sell raw milk - not the oppression of a race of people.

My view on the 2 is very different - as pertains to this discussion (Raw Milk), there are ways to change laws without breaking them first.

this is true...
and...
it's all on a continuoum.
the oppression of a race of people is on the extreme end - but both are essentially about the individual's right to control their own lives.

Yes, thank you. I was using those 2 people as examples of civil disobedience helping to make a difference with laws that are not upkeeping with morality and/or a person's own personal rights, not necessarily saying the right to consume raw milk is on the same level as the right for an african american to sit in the same spot as a caucasian person can on a bus!

for me, the issue of *selling* raw milk is an ecomonic one - the right to pursue a business, make a living, in good faith, without undue interference by government. an *extremely* important issue, in my estimation.

True, however look at all the red tape surrounding the American dream now based on superfluous laws. They sure make it easy for big business to make a buck though!

however the right to *buy* raw milk is one of control of what will go into one's body, so I see it as on the same continuoum as civil rights, abortion, enforced vaccinations, the ability of public schools to medicate kids without parental permission...

Yes, the continuum. That is also part of what I was getting at. A good visual is a kid holding a blanket & you slowly tug a bit of it away at a time until finally you just give that final yank!! 95% of Americans *my guesstimate* are too lazy to do anything when the don't like something the government does. Part of this is not necessarily laziness, but they just don't have any TIME. How much free time does your average working class American have? Especially with a family. They like to keep us busy....

If I deem it best for my health to consume raw milk, but am prevented from doing so by misguided and overly parental laws, that is the government interfering with my right to control what goes into my body. THAT I have an even bigger problem with than the government's interference in the right to conduct legitimate commerce. Sure, goverment does it all the time (drugs, et.al. which I have opinions about, but are not the point here). however, that doesn't make it proper, or constitutional, or morally correct.

in NYC (IIRC) they've passed laws restricting restaruants from serving foods with trans fats. Some CA municipalities are trying to do the same thing. to this I say "NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS". same for raw milk. I believe all of these things are in the same territory, all off them are government overreaching, and that IS a primary issue, even if you have no interest in the raw milk or transfat subject itself.

True. I get very upset when I see a law passed that stomps on anyone's rights whether I am passionate about the subject or not. It's all about the continuum.

every year, the CA papers list "some of the most important" laws implemented and going into effect. those editions list a few dozen of the "most imporant" of many hundreds, or sometimes more than a thousand new state laws that have been passed for the year. the vast majority of these are increased restrictions, not decreased controls. THAT is where I see the "process of changing laws" at it's most effective - there is no comparable list of hundreds or even dozens of laws that have been repealed or made less restrictive. if the part of the process that limited government behavior worked as well as the part that limits personal freedoms, I'd be much happier about working within the system, and much more hopefull of it's potentiial to produce good results.

sadly, I'm not seeing that in action. so I'll stick with my opinion on the need for some people to sometimes make a louder noise, and applaud their courage for doing so even if it comes at great personal expense.

I stick too. These few Americans that are willing to take the time to speak out about injustices, and/or go to jail over their principles are what this countries freedoms were founded on.

 

[elevan]

That is part of the discussion the guy was convicted for civil disobedience surrounding the sale of the raw milk. Where are we off topic?

We veer off topic when we discuss American Civil Rights issues surrounding race discrimination.