Cow with calf to thinI think ?

[redtailgal]

...Rememder that I,m In Florida and Its not as cold as In Canda although the winters here do get down to freezing sometimes........ This picture was taken this morning about 11am after Id fed them and put the out to graze...

[url]http://s9.postimage.org/4robi2ml7/100_1319.jpg[/url] I will post anouther picture of the Mini Zebu that we are talking about A,S.A.P

Not knowing what part of Fla you reside in, I can't say it for a fact, but I suspect you and I are located on about the same latitude. If I fly due East from my house, I'll be over the gulf in 30 minutes and won't see land again till I reach Florida's west coast so our winters aren't going to be all that different..
The word "Winter" really doesn't mean a lot in of itself--as a word. It's a season--primarily associated with shorter days--less sunlight/24 hr period and that manifests itself primarily in daily forage growth and forage quality. It's this lesser quality and abundance of forage that we prepare our animals for more than anything else--as well as the temperature drops.

I think for her it was really a matter of her not being 100% when she was bred back last year. Her calf last year had to be weaned early when momma injured herself and the treatments for the injury seemed to be worse than the injury itself. She lost weight then and lost her milk and eventually got pneumonia. The vet later said she was fine and could be bred back. In hind sight we probably should have waited a little longer and got her in great condition rather than good condition.

The history you've provided helps a lot. She's been stressed by calving, injured, stressed again by the medical treatment, stressed both mentally and medically by pneumonia, and never really came back to what she was before calving and injury. Pneumonia is so common, that many people just take it for granted, but it's an illness that can take down even the strongest man or beast--never under-estimate it. The cow has likely lost both muscle and fat. The fat can be replaced fairly easily and quickly with higher fat and good protein content feed regimen. Don't rush it--she lost it slowly--bring it back the same way. Muscle replacement tho, will take some extra time. If mine, I would not let her be bred back right away.

Greybeard.........I wish there was a like button for your post!

 

[Sugarbushdraft]

Greybeard.........I wish there was a like button for your post!

We need one like on BYC... IMO...

 

[foot]

Its good you weaned her calf and put her in another pasture alone.Symphony She Is not on her own , She Is In another pasture with another calf There are thee In that pature I have not seperated her from her calf, There Is her/Her calf and a Third calf, that I,m weanig But I did like your coments.

 

[foot]

by the way the little bull calf (not hers) that was sneaking milk from this cow is not in the same pasture as she is. He is left to feed off his momma only...and doing just fine.

 

[Cricket]

Thanks for clarifying that--I was kinda scratching my head!

 

[foot]

Okay so yesterday it seemed this cow was looking a bit better already but now today she looks really thin again. We have been feeding her (and her calf eats some too) Sweet feed and Calf Manna, all the hay they can eat and they still have green grass to graze on. What is the best thing to feed her to put weight back on her? We were thinking adding some cracked corn to the rations. Tonight I gave her some B-complex gel I had on hand hoping it would increase her appetite. I have seperated her from her calf for a little while...we will see how long that last without her stressing out. Right now they are both content to eat hay across the fence from each other---maybe I will get lucky and she will at least have a break for tonight. The calf is doing just fine.
I also ran a ketone strip under her urine. It tested out at a small amount of ketones. Is this a bad sign and how do I correct that? Gosh feeding cows is such a science. All the info we can acquire from you old time cow hands is appreciated. We are going to blood test her and hope she has not been bred back already we have to wait for the calf to be 75 days old before drawing blood though so it wont be for another week though. She weighs approx 350 pounds. Yes, she is only 36 inches tall measured behind her hump.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear about something like this is that she is putting all her resources that she is gaining from what you are feeding her into milk production. It's obvious to me because she does have a 10 week old calf at side, she's not dry at all. If she were dry I think she may be gaining more than what she can gain now. I hope I'm not repeating what someone else has said already, but regardless it's just something I thought I'd mention.

You might want to look at this link for information on ketosis: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/80900.htm

 

[foot]

..I here and have read all that you say thank you ...We are now considering weaning the calf early or controling the number of feedings that the calf gets per day.We are open to any and all surgestions we just do not want her to go downhill anyfurther.

 

[greybeard]

Okay so yesterday it seemed this cow was looking a bit better already but now today she looks really thin again. We have been feeding her (and her calf eats some too) Sweet feed and Calf Manna, all the hay they can eat and they still have green grass to graze on. What is the best thing to feed her to put weight back on her? We were thinking adding some cracked corn to the rations. Tonight I gave her some B-complex gel I had on hand hoping it would increase her appetite. I have seperated her from her calf for a little while...we will see how long that last without her stressing out. Right now they are both content to eat hay across the fence from each other---maybe I will get lucky and she will at least have a break for tonight. The calf is doing just fine.
I also ran a ketone strip under her urine. It tested out at a small amount of ketones. Is this a bad sign and how do I correct that? Gosh feeding cows is such a science. All the info we can acquire from you old time cow hands is appreciated. We are going to blood test her and hope she has not been bred back already we have to wait for the calf to be 75 days old before drawing blood though so it wont be for another week though. She weighs approx 350 pounds. Yes, she is only 36 inches tall measured behind her hump.

The fat can be replaced fairly easily and quickly with higher fat and good protein content feed regimen. Don't rush it--she lost it slowly--bring it back the same way. Muscle replacement tho, will take some extra time. If mine, I would not let her be bred back right away.

(This might get long)

You won't see a big change or improvement overnight or even over a 2-3 day period. That doesn't mean tho, that change or improvement isn't taking place. Again--This will take some time.
Be careful about separating cow and calf for too long if you have never seen the calf drink water. Even in mid Oct, dehydration can come on quick--even with a drought hardy breed such as Zebu. And, I'm sure you know you shouldn't wean 'too' early, even if you can get the calf on grass, feed, and hay, because it's rumen hasn't had time enough to fully develop so it can properly process all it eats.

If already bred, Don't worry about it. The first 90 days of fetal development aren't all that hard on a momma cow--even a nursing momma.

I think calfmanna is 25% protein-3% fat- ~4% fiber. Additionally, you are already feeding sweet feed. 12-14% I imagine. That should be more than adequate to meet "high protein-higher fat".
Cracked corn is not going to add much to that--if anything at all. Low fat (3%)and low protein (3%) and high in starch. She will only eat what she has room for, and unless you are feeding only a limited amt of sweet feed and manna, you may actually be decreasing her fat and protein intake by substituting cracked corn. And about 1/2 of that protein in cracked corn is the type that has to be digested in the intestine--not broken down in the rumen as with other feeds. This is why corn is always a supplement and not a substitute.

Pneumonia is hard on any system--harder than most people think, and is hard to get completely over. It's one of those illnesses that I personally believe nothing ever completely recovers from--people or animals. Things 'recover' from it, but I believe it simply has lasting effects, whether it's viral, bacterial or both.
Give this some time Foot. And..

This, is a trap we all fall in to. We watch something everyday, whether it's a plant, a tree, a cow, or a child and we see no change. Done it myself way too many times. The change is taking place, but because it is so gradual and in such a minute amt/day, our little pea brains often don't recognize it. But let someone who hasn't seen the object of our concern for a week or a month come by, and they see it right away. (Parents don't think their infant son is growing much or properly but the grandparents come visit and it's "Oh MY how he has grown!!"
It works both ways, both on improvement of conditions and on decline. Anyway give this reovery some time and if you really don't see improvement over the next few weeks, and have to, even tho they like to get in our wallets deeply, get the vet to take a look at her.

Not directly related to your cattle, but a little about grass and winter forage in the Southern US:
Keep in mind, that this time of year, the coastals, Tiftons, Bahia grasses are already beginning to shift their energy into the root systems instead of the leafy parts. I'm not a scientist or a biologist, so I can't explain how the plants know, but it has something to do with the shorter days and the less direct path of the sun's rays. The grass still looks green here, but on close examination, it's more stemmy, and the tips of the leafy parts are very dark. Not near the protein and nutritional value of that same pasture when 2nd cutting of hay time came. This is wqhy so many folks like 2nd cutting hay instead of first or 3rd. 1st cutting is mostly water and 3rd is too much stem. It's for this reason too, that we need to have our cattle in good condition already (or nearly so). If you watch your cattle, you'll probably see they spend more time foraging now and less time layin around. That's because it takes more lbs of late fall grass to provide their nutrition than it did in late spring on the same pasture. Later on, even if we don't have a hard frost or freeze, it gets even worse. The grass may still be there, but nutrition wise, there ain't much to it.
Further North, it may be different, but that's what happens here at my latitude.

 

[foot]

Greybeard---thank you! You seem a very knowledgable cattleman. We just love this little cow. We haven't seen her yet this morning since it is so dark but I did shine a flash light and can see her and her calf side by side on the fence line. There was no mooing and crying last night from either of them. Now I know from experience that the calf well could have nursed through the fence. But we just wanted to see momma have at least a little break. This calf, though she eats the feed and hay and drinks water is still quite demanding on her momma. More so than any of the other calves we have here IMO. Momma was content to eat and not be bothered I think. Today we will let the calf and momma back together and maybe continue to separate them at night. We will continue feeding as we have been and practice more patience. We are probably overly protective of this particular cow since we have seen her at her worse and do not want to go there with her again. We'll skip on the corn and stick with the calf manna and sweet feed and all the hay she can eat. Thanks again. We will try to post a pic of the fat little calf later.

Foot....