Fever and Scours

[newbiekat]

Ok here's an update... We tested again with the CMT kit, she tested positive. Not completely gelled, but slightly, so we went ahead and treated with ToDAY. Both sides, morning and night just to be safe. Shortly after this, she started to get bottle jaw, and it escalated pretty fast. We had treated with cydectin about a month ago, but it must not have worked. So we went to the vet and brought a fecal in, and for some weird reason, the vet said there was no worms! Well, not enough to be concerned about. Has that ever happened to anyone?? There's no way she doesnt have worms, she's got bottle jaw!! Anyways, they gave us panacur (which they've told us to rotate between that, cydectin and synanthic). I don't like the whole rotating idea, but it seems that cydectin didnt work for Daisy... So they gave us panacur, which I later find out is the same thing as Safeguard. Lovely... They told us to dose 1cc/20 lbs for 3 days straight. We decided to dose at 1cc/10 lbs for 3 days. She also gave us (2) 1cc doses of excenel (an antibiotic), told us to give them 48 hrs apart (starting Tuesday 8/26) and start the Panacur dosage on the in between day. So we did.

I also decided, that since the bottle jaw was so evident, and the vet didnt seem to do anything about it, I'm also dosing her with 1cc/25 lbs of Iron, and 1cc/20 lbs of B12 daily. I have done that for 3 days straight now, will continue for at least another 2 or 3. Her bottle jaw was pretty bad two days ago, but since we started with the iron (and probably everything else) it has gone way down. I was planning on dosing her weekly for at least the next 3 weeks after these few days of continuous treatment.

We have stopped milking her since all of this happened (she still has her two kids nursing)... My concern is, her temperature is still fairly high (103.1 again), and she is refusing to eat. I'm wondering if worms aren't the only thing wrong... Could she have a bad tooth? Or am I just not giving it enough time? What's the deal?? I have continued to put her on the stand just to get her to eat something without milking her, but I'm worried cuz she is running AWAY from the gate and I have to go get her! Granted we are giving her shots etc daily right now, but even that shouldnt deter her from grain! Today we got her on the stand, doctored her, but she stood while I milked two others and didnt take a single bite of grain. What's the deal?? I'm worried.

 

[babsbag]

I would be worried too. Sorry she is not eating, that is the scary part. Can you give her some banamine and get the temp down and then maybe she will have more of an appetite? I would try some treats, not just grain, but of course go slow with anything new. Is there any browse she has access to that she might like? Mine would love blackberries and oak trees. They also like green beans and pumpkin.

Can't help with the bottle jaw as I have never dealt with that; my goats are on dry lot and I seldom have a worm problem. But I am sure the iron and B12 is helping but why she has it and no worms is different. It is a sign of being anemic, but why is she anemic??? IDK

I wish I had some real advice, my doe that had mastitis never acted sick. Did the vet have any advice about that at all? The only I can think of is maybe systemic antibiotics as well in case she has a secondary infection.

Sorry I don't have any better advice.

 

[alsea1]

She sounds pretty ill.
I would def. go with some banamine.
I hope she takes starts getting better.

 

[newbiekat]

Ok guys... Need your help. We have been struggling with her ever since this started... She has not fully recovered. Around that time (Aug 30th) we gave her 3 days of 1cc/10lbs of panacur, injectable iron, and B12 to get her appetite going. We gave her iron and B12 daily for about 3 days past the panacur days. She began to eat more, not quite back to herself though.

Two days before we were to dose with panacur again the bottle jaw began to reappear. We dosed again for the 3 days straight. It went away for those 3 days... The bottle jaw then came back within a day or two of dosing the second time. I don't know what to do!!

Her worming history goes as follows:
March- Ivomec (failed)
End of March- Cydectin
June- Cydectin
Aug (22)- Cydectin
Aug (28)- Panacur started
Sept (3 wks later)- Panacur

I guess looking back I did use Cydectin quite a bit...

Now it's the beginning of October, and apparently we can't get rid of the worms. She's the only goat that has needed wormed this much this Summer (we don't worm unless we see a need), and I can't get rid of them!! She's lost a bunch of weight, and I don't quite want to breed her until I can get her condition back up.

What do I do??? Should I go back to trying the Ivomec? I don't have Synanthic, the vet here isn't very nice to me (thinks I don't know what I'm doing... which, he may have a point , but he doesn't have to make his thoughts obvious).

HELLPPP!!!

 

[Southern by choice]

When you de-worm her are you using a dry lot? Where is she dumping these worms?
I am wondering if she may have flukes. Flukes can also cause bottle jaw as they are blood suckers. If so there are only a few dewormers that work for this. I am not sure if cydectin does... ivermec and panacur do not. Ivermectin PLUS does.
Have you had actual fecals done? You may have mentioned this but I cannot remember.

If your herd management is good and you are not having these issues across the board with your other goats than this girl may need to be culled.
20% of your herd will be responsible for 80% of the parasites. When you can identify those goats it is best to cull as it will be best for the whole herd. Dairy goats especially she be culled hard for worm issues. No point in milking just to have to pitch the milk all the time from needing to de-worm. Parasite resistance does have a genetic factor. If she has constant issues there is a good chance her offspring will have the same issues.

That is a lot of de-worming for a goat.
Are the goats dry lot or pasture?

 

[Southern by choice]

forgot to ask... have you tested your herd for Johnnes?

 

[newbiekat]

I am not dry lotting her, the only other place I could dry lot her is where I have some babies being weaned right now.

I have had fecals done at the end of August, but we must not have grabbed new berries or not her berries because the vet said they couldnt find anything. I was thinking of bringing another sample to the vet again... **I NEED MY OWN MICROSCOPE... MAYBE FOR CHRISTMAS... SIGH...**

I may go to the farm store and get some Ivomec Plus tomorrow. I may try that.

We have talked about culling her but she's almost 5 and this is the first time we've really had issues with worms with her. We have another goat that had issues when she was younger, she is now 2 and has had no issues since then, so I'm not sure what the deal is.

They are on pasture. We have sold off alot of goats in the past few weeks thinking maybe we were over grazing the pasture. We now have 8 on 3 acres. That CANT be too many.

I have not tested for Johnnes. We were planning on getting them tested when we got the girls preg tested this year. This is our first time getting them tested so we were wanting to get them preg tested, CAE, CL, and Johnnes tested this year. Except its really expensive from what I've researched... So we may start with Johnnes and preg tested cuz that might be the most economically feasable for us at the moment.

 

[Southern by choice]

Testing for Johnnes on a pregnant animal can give false positive.
LOL just about anything can cause false +. Deworming, kiddding etc.
Johnnes should be done as a whole herd evaluation. In other words if all animals are neg and you have a suspect or positive re-test on that animal is a good idea but don't panic... it is looking at the results by whole herd and consistency.

You may want to check out Rollins lab in NC
Out of state pays 2x what in state pays but CL is charged differently because that is sent out by Rollins to UC Davis and if you are out of state (not in CA) it is just $14.50

I am in state so I pay :
CAE- $1.50
Johnnes- $1.50
CL (through UC DAVIS- CA- out of state fee) $14.50

Looking at your signature line you have 13 goats

Out of state-
CAE- 13x 3.00= 39.00
Johnnes- same= 39.00
CL- 13x 14.50=188.50

There will be a charge of $20 for Rollins to send it overnight to UC Davis. If you are a first time client at Rollins there is a $10 or $20 fee (can't remember)

$306 I believe.
You may find somewhere cheaper for CL testing.
Can you draw your own blood?

If no worms are being found I would be considering other issues,
Even if you need to wait on CL testing as that is the biggest cost factor I would get the others done. Then that would be... $98
I recommend Rollins because they are great to work with. They are patient with people, genuinely thoughful and helpful with any questions you have.

You may want to consider dry lotting them for a time and see how well they do. May cost a bit more but it allows them to eat without ingesting parasites.
Has any cocci been found?

Most of the time everyone says let the grass grow up so they eat off the top and don't get the parasites BUT this is a two edge sword here. Tall long grasses also TRAP moisture! This creates a wonderful environment for parasites. Cutting it down to nothing in the spring summer allows the sun and heat to dry the land out which makes it an inhospitable environment for parasites. The sun bakes the land.

Kinda tricky I know.

I can forward you the links for Rollins if you like... their site is a bit tricky to get around so I tend to just get to the exact pages LOL

 

[newbiekat]

Testing for Johnnes on a pregnant animal can give false positive.
LOL just about anything can cause false +. Deworming, kiddding etc.

So what's the point, or rather, how do you know if its a true positive or not?

What about shipping? I'm in Kansas, would that be a killer? Does it have to be overnighted?

No, we don't know how to draw blood (which would be another fee from the vet to have them do it for us), but when DH and I were discussing this, we thought, well... Would the vet be willing to teach us how to pull our own blood while they're doing it? Or is that against their practice?

Has any cocci been found?

Well... We had one that they said there was some cocci in her fecal sample, but we treated for it, brought a fecal in just recently and they said there was no sign of cocci in the sample this time. So... I'm not sure... She had a whole slew of other issues at the time, including scours for probably 3 weeks as we did absolutely everything we could to clear them up (I'm amazed she didn't die)... But now she's scourless, and according the vet, coccidia free....

Most of the time everyone says let the grass grow up so they eat off the top and don't get the parasites BUT this is a two edge sword here. Tall long grasses also TRAP moisture! This creates a wonderful environment for parasites. Cutting it down to nothing in the spring summer allows the sun and heat to dry the land out which makes it an inhospitable environment for parasites. The sun bakes the land.

You know... Thinking about it, we didn't have our pasture baled this year like we normally do. We usually get 2 big round bales off our little 3 acres. But this year they said it wasn't enough to bale. So we didn't get it baled. We have been cutting small parts of the pasture at a time to get it cut down some, and the grass has grown up again in parts... It hasn't been excessively wet here... I'm wondering if not getting it cut at least may be part of our problem!

 

[Southern by choice]

This is what is printed on the page of our results from the lab where we send our samples. Maybe this will explain it better.
We sttart testing for it when we send in samples for anything else like CAE, CL... usually by 8 months. Johnnes they want 18 m but we do it anyway. The most accurate way is fecal but that takes 4 months and is $40.

"The Johne's ELISA was designed as a herd screening test and results should be interpreted on a herd, rather than an individual animal basis. It is recommended that diagnostic tests be used only for animals that are at least 18 months of age.
Antibodies to Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis were not detected. Animals classified as negative by ELISA are either not infected or not producing antibodies. Re-testing in 6-12 months will increase the confidence that animals are truly free of infection. In M. avium subsp. paratuberculosis infected herds, a number of animals may be fecal culture positive but ELISA negative. A negative result on a single animal can only be interpreted when the paratuberculosis history and test results are known for the entire herd/ flock."

Drawing blood is VERY EASY! I would ask your vet. Good vets usually will show you how. Vets that care more about the animals than their pockets want to help keep cost down. The vets I work with know I will call at the slightest concern about the goats so they also know I am not a "throw eveything at 'em" kind. I am a data person. IOW- Build a mutually beneficial relationship with your vet, it sounds like you have been doing that already.
It is very easy to feel for the jugular and very easy to draw. I will say using 12cc syringes, even though you only need 4-6 ml is easier then using a 6 ml syringe as you have less "draw". Easier on the hand.
I have always been good at leg draws as my background is with canines so most of the time I did leg draws alone without anyone holdin- so getting it done quick and fast was important. Leg draws you go parallel, with the jugular you don't want to go "parallel" but more at an angle but not straight in either. That way the needle doesn't pull out if the goat jumps.If it does no big deal but you need to be quick, if too slow then it can sart to clot in the needle and then that is done for... you would have to stick a new needle on. I like the luer lock syringe with 20 guage needle.
Also pulling back on the syringe first to break the "seal" then pushing the plunger back up makes the draw easier. That is done when you prep the needles/syringes not when you stick the goat LOL.
Bucks are generally more difficult. Let me rephrase that... they actually are better behaved, the difficulty comes in because their neck's are so big and the fold can be a pain. They are also very hairy! Sometimes shaving a spot may be better on the buck.

My nigie does are awful! The little goats are squirmier and harder to hold. Easiest to back them in a corner so their butt is against the wall. Younger animals are really easy and bleed well!

When you have your vet out watch closely and hopefully he/she will let you try and give you pointers.

Glad to hear there is no cocci. I wonder if there was some bacterial infection with all the scours.

We have really good resistance here and don't have many issues with worms but in 2012-2013 we had an unusual amount of rain in our region in NC. Almost 9 months of constant rain. The grass couldn't be cut because it would never dry out enough to mow it before it rained again. We fared ok but we did make the call to deworm everyone across the board that year before breeding regardless of EPG counts. That year farm after farm suffered. Almost every farm we know of lost kids and even adults. Cocci seemed to get the kids and worms the adults. We didn't lose a single goat but I aged 10 years worried about them!
It was so bad. Good farms that had never had an issue before... it devastated so many and then many ended up with cocci issues left on the land. A lot of breeders started cocci programs for the first time after that horrible season.

Almost forgot... is your goat on any probiotics?