Food Aggression? Update: Going from Bad to Worse! (post #5)

[greeneggsandham]

Something definately doesn't sound right with this mare. Before I did any type of corrective shoeing I would do x-rays to see just what I would be dealing with. To have navicular at 4 is not a good thing. What is this horse used for?

 

[w c]

Yes, this kind of thing does get worse if it is left alone.

I would suggest that you should probably avoid situations where you feel unsure or unsafe. Too, you can also learn to handle horses that are more tense at feeding time. The first thing is to realize that most of the behavior is usually aimed at other HORSES, not at you. The key is to just position the horse so any hooves don't land on you.

Most mares feel very tense at feeding time. They have an instinct to protect not only themselves, but also their foal, at feeding time. Even if they have never foaled, they have that instinct. The feeling that other horses are crowded around them, especially if nearby in stalls, even more so if the stalls are without solid walls, makes them tense.

I can't visualize how the stall is set up that this situation would come up. Usually there is a stall door, and a hay rack near the stall door. Or the hay is put on the floor in one of the two corners near the door. The person walks in the stall door, and puts the hay in one corner, in a rack or on the floor rather than in the back of the stall (which would require walking by the horse's hind legs, where one might get kicked).

You might suggest to the owner, that you simply drop the hay in the doorway with this horse, if you feel uncomfortable.

But...you also could change how you go in the stall, and fix it.

Since the horse is facing you and trying to nibble the hay you're carrying, it doesn't sound like the horse has her hind quarters to you as you come in the stall. So you don't have that problem....

Normally, when you go into a stall to feed, the horse should 'get over' and stay there. This means they stay against a wall of the stall that keeps them out of your way. Sometimes ownerss and staff get sloppy and lazy about this. The horse gets out of the habit. Normally, staff says 'get over' as they come in, the horse stands against one wall of the stall, and the staff person puts the feed down. As he leaves, the horse can come over and start eating.

If the horse is trying to eat the hay, say 'NO' and keep walking determinedly to where you want to drop the hay. If 'no' doesn't work, usually, waving your hand toward the horse's face will. The horse will lift his head, and back up a little bit. Horses don't like things flapping toward their face. Do not strike the horse in the face. Just wave your hand up toward her face. If that doesn't work, a strike with a riding crop on the shoulder or base of neck, where it joins the shoulder, can make the horse move back. Do not strike the horse in the face with the riding crop.

A person needs to be watchful when feeding. If you don't watch out, horses can quickly develop the habits you describe. You need to watch for the little beginning signs of nibbling food and the horse getting in the wrong position in the stall.

When you leave, if the horse's hind quarters are facing toward you or even just angled a little too much toward yoou, move the horse's hind quarters over by saying, 'Get over'. If 'get over' does not work, you can usually make a gesture as if you have a whip in your hand, sort of pointing your arm toward their hind quarters. Usually, just pointing your arm as if you have a whip, toward his hind quarters, will make the horse move its hind quarters away.

If that fails you can carry a longer whip into the stall. Not a longe whip, which is too floppy, but a stock whip or buggy whip. Flick that longer whip at the hind quarters, so the horse swings her hind quarters away from you. Do NOT use the shorter riding crop, use something that allows you to stand further away from the horse where you will not get kicked. Usually you do not have to HIT the hind quarters, just waving the whip will move the hind quarters away from you. The tiny whooshing sound a whip makes is usually plenty enough.

If the horse is just 'threatening' to kick and her hind quarters are angled away from you, where she could not actually hit you, you need to understand that some horses simply do lift their hind legs at feeding time, and it is generally not even directed at you, but at the other horses around her. They're saying, 'thanks I love you, now if I can just keep these other horses from stealing my food!' Usually, mares do this, when they feel threatened that other horses are going to take away their feed. You need to learn to position the horse in the stall so that she can mutter about her little 'opinions' without accidentally bumping you.

Generally, the behavior is to warn other horses away. The animal probably was in a situation in the past, where she had to fight for her food in a crowded pen or paddock.

Horses generally get tense at feeding time. Barn managers need to do everything they can to keep the stable as quiet and stress free as possible. Positiion hay feeders so they aren't near each other (even through a wall). The most anxious horse can be fed first before the other horses in the barn get wound up. The very tense horse can be in a stall with solid walls where it doesn't feel so threatened. Too, horses can be given a bit of carrot or apple to keep them quiet and busy as the other horses get fed. They can only think of one thing at a time.

It actually is kind of funny to watch someone in a barn full of horses feed when they stick to keeping the horses over. After a little while, the horses all automatically get over and stand up until the feeder is done, without even a word, but everyone needs to be consistent. It's rather cute to watch and keeps the barn quieter at feeding time.

 

[Bunnylady]

I can't visualize how the stall is set up that this situation would come up.

Lets see if this helps:

Call the wall that separates the stall from the aisle the south wall. The door is all the way to the right, at the corner where the south wall meets the east wall. The hay rack is in the middle of the west wall, with the bottom of the rack about 5 feet from the floor (I suspect this guy thought he was feeding giraffes when he installed these racks!) With the horse eating at the rack, you have to walk along beside its body to get to the door. This horse was kicking at me as I was walking back to the door.

If the horse is just 'threatening' to kick and her hind quarters are angled away from you, where she could not actually hit you, you need to understand that some horses simply do lift their hind legs at feeding time, and it is generally not even directed at you, but at the other horses around her.

No, this was back humped and bucking, swinging her butt toward me. She wasn't doing a full leg-extended kick, but I don't think I misunderstood either the implication of the gesture, nor the party at whom the gesture was aimed!

And I feel sure that you could ask any of the dozen witnesses to the "intense arguement" about who this mare was charging and kicking at, and they would be pretty clear about it being me, not the other horses, that she was having a problem with. I speak "body language" fairly well; I can walk through my chicken flock without ruffling a feather, or I can scatter them with one gesture (you oughta see me do "Moses parting the Red Sea" LOL!). I was in full combat mode with this horse, and only had a lead rope with which to extend my reach. (In the mare's defense, I must admit that there was a stall [not hers] with a feeder that was accessible from the aisle behind me; she was trying to drive me off, I was determined that she wasn't going to succeed!) I'm not foolhardy enough to get myself beat up over a scoop of feed; if she had had the nerve to really come after me, I'd have gotten out of her way. But somebody had to deal with this situation, the kids and their non-horsey parents were obviously non-starters. I had drawn a line in the sand, as it were, but I wasn't about to die for it (and nor was the horse, when she couldn't get past me, she retreated to stand beside the stall of one of the horses that she got turned out with. I read that as seeking the comfort of the presence of a familiar animal, rather than trying to steal her buddy's food - which she couldn't reach, anyway). I guess I still had some of my "armor" on after I put her back out, because the other horses were unusually respectful and well-behaved coming in, even though they couldn't have seen what happened in the barn.

I came up with a sort of compromise when it came to the matter of the hay. I ordered the mare "back," and like you said, deflected any reaching for the hay with a wave of my hand. The first few times, I practically had to snarl at her, and give her my best predator glare (sheesh!). Once I had made it clear that I meant business, she became less aggressive, and I could drop my voice and gestures to "quiet but firm." Once she had backed out of my way, I put the hay down under the rack (seeing no need to press my luck by making her wait while I played basketball-player-shooting-hoops to get the hay in that rack, she'd just spend the next ten minutes pulling it all out anyway) and left the stall.

But now, it is all academic. The girls were all a-buzz last night when I showed up to feed. I don't know any of the particulars, but the mare has been sold. When I went in this morning, she was gone (can you hear the collective sigh of relief?!). I'm sorry for the family; I know they took a real hit on the price of this horse. I'm sorry for the kid; she put a lot of time and emotional energy into this animal. I hope it doesn't turn out to have been for nothing - maybe the family will listen to the trainer next time, and get a more suitable animal. I'm sorry for the horse, too - she had just managed to claw her way up to the top of the "herd," and won the right to be the one standing in front of the gate at feeding time. I just hope that whoever bought her knows someone that can really help with this mare's feet. I also hope that they don't intend to use her for breeding (could you imagine this attitude with an honest-to-goodness foal to protect!?).

 

[w c]

I feel badly for you and I am sure you were quite frightened. People often are, by sudden motions of a horse or the thought of getting kicked. However, your general description sounds like something really extreme and dangerous is going on, but when you describe the horse's behavior in much more detail, it actually seems like relatively mild behavior that was resolved with 'a wave and a word'. Working in barns, one has to get used to a lot of things, and learn how to deal with them. If you are going too feed horses for a stable, it's important to learn safe and effective ways of dealing with horses at feeding time.

Certainly that happens sometimes, people do get kicked at, but it's easy to correct and fix once one is taught the proper method. Still, the basic source of the excitement and tension, is the food and other horses. When you are getting kicked at, it's because you're being viewed like 'a little horse', instead of an authoritative human leader.

Re body language, and you can make your chickens move aside. Horses are different from chickens. They're bigger. Body language is different. What works for chickens doesn't work for horses.

However you define 'full combat mode', a 'bearing' or 'projecting energy' that is supposed to form a magic sort of 'psychic armor' - That is not effective with horses, and never, ever an effective way to 'protect yourself'. Anyone in any situation around horses, needs a very, calm cool head, and to be taught techniques and proper use of appropriate equipment. 'Full combat' mode and 'body armour' are worthless - technique and skill is what works.

If you are frightened at a certain point, and get intimidated and want to run out ('I wasn't about to die over a scoop of feed' and other comments), someone else needs to deal with the problem. It needs to be someone who is prepared to stay in the stall, train the horse until the appropriate response is gotten, then praise the horse and feed it.

Training a horse is not about some sort of psychic intimidation - or even, much of the time, about punishment. Punishment is a rare and brief thing, and it must be delivered from a very, very calm, and thoughtful mind. And the horse needs to be rewarded.

For example, the command, get over, a flick of a whip if needed, and then Goooooood Girl!!! and the reward of the food.

Please do not try to deal with this through easily lost bravado, and a lead rope in hand. Please get properly equipped, and have someone teach you what to do.

Now this horse is gone. That gave me a chill and a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. This is not a good market for horses. Hopefully she went to someone who will understand how to correct her behavior and make sure she stays a 'good equine citizen'. I shudder to think of the other possibilities.

You might ask the manager to reposition hay mangers or buckets to allow a more appropriate access to the stalls, where the horse can be positioned against one wall, the full length of its body, and stay there until after the feed is put into the stall.

Please - Learn horse handling techniques and equipment, and please, if so terrified by a horse, please, please, don't try to be a hero again. I see such things end in tragedy all too often.

 

[Bunnylady]

Ohh, trust me, I won't tryin' to be no hero. I'm a 50-year-old mother of two that has nothing to prove to anybody. I am well aware of my shortcomings, and not in the least inclined to push my luck. I would have much preferred to have ducked through the gate and watched as someone else dealt with the horse that was careening up and down the aisle like a loose cannon. But as I told someone else afterward, "She's not evil. She's just having a little bit of trouble understanding who's in charge." Had I believed that the animal was truly dangerous (as in, seriously intending bodily harm) I would never have gone into the stall with her to begin with, under any circumstances. I believe this is an animal that is naturally inclined to want to be dominant, and will push things as far as she thinks she can. As I recall, the only time I felt really afraid was that sort of freeze-framed moment at the gate, after the other horse had left, and this mare spun around about an arm's length from me and I saw both of her hind feet come off the ground and I thought, "that's it, I've got nowhere to go; I'm gonna get nailed." She didn't lash out, though; if I had touched her then, I'm sure she would have. I believed she was trying to intimidate me, I felt like I had to deal with her in the aisle to let her know that it hadn't gotten her anywhere, and quickly, before she "rewarded" herself with the food in the other horse's stall. I didn't have time to go rummaging in tackboxes for appropriate equipment.

When you are getting kicked at, it's because you're being viewed like 'a little horse', instead of an authoritative human leader.

I think this is the crux of the problem with this horse. I was not the only person having problems with her, it seems to me that she doesn't recognize people as being authority figures. As a feeder, I'm not in a position to do much "ordering around," and any horse that is inclined to be disrespectful of humans may see me as a natural target for their pushiness. I have had a few others that I have had to teach to "get back" before they could have their hay, but this is the first that gave me grief when leaving. It actually did take more than "a word and a wave," but I don't want to be too specific on a public forum (remember, this isn't my horse!).

Now this horse is gone. That gave me a chill and a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Me, too. I know that the family bought her, largely because she was pretty, a little underweight, and they didn't particularly like the people that owned her (sort of a "rescuing her" mentality). I sincerely hope that this softheartedness wouldn't let them sell her to the worst sort of buyer, but maybe somebody who wanted to give a pretty horse to someone as a Christmas present. My husband was more than a little irked by this attitude of get-rid-of-it-rather-than-fix-it, but I pointed out that, had they been really doing their homework, they wouldn't have bought this particular animal in the first place. Some things can't be fixed, not in the framework of a boarding barn with limited space, or maybe not to the degree of this animal ever being able to do what this girl wants to do with a horse. I had a sort of maudlin moment in the barn the morning after she left. I picked up her halter, and said a brief prayer that this situation truly would work out the best for all concerned. I don't blame the horse for her lack of manners, and I too dread the thought of what may happen if she winds up in the wrong hands.

 

[w c]

I would respectfully submit you were pressing your luck on this one, in a very dangerous way. Your description of what you were doing was really scary. Please, don't.

Horses don't treat people like 'little horses' out of disrespect or meanness. They do it because it's natural, normal and they've never been properly or consistently taught to do anything different, and have no idea what is expected of them.

They also 'treat people how they act'. If people act like little horses, they get treated like little horses. If they scamper away when the horse 'tests the water', then the horse learned to be aggressive. A horse can learn to be aggressive from one person in one second. People don't realize what they are teaching.

Horses don't get trained by getting roughed up or beat up. They get trained by getting trained. There really is no substitute - tiring them out or beating them up doesn't train their brain, just makes them more difficult - erratic, dangerous, flighty, aggressive, to deal with.