gelding with issues...........

[apdan]

Good morning all,
I have a few questions and was wondering if someone could answer them for me!

1. Has anyone here ever owned a proud cut gelding?
2. If yes, have you had issues with him??

ok.. so here's the story
A friend of mine was leaving for the summer and didn't know what to do with her gelding and he's in his late teens and dead broke... being down a horse because one of ours is still on the injured list (but on the side note, we are starting to work her back up so YAYAY for that) anyways.. I told my friend I would "borrow" her horse for the summer, I have rode him myself before and been around him and he has been rode around my horse with no issues so figured we could use him. Got him to our house and he brings both our mares into full blown heats, our farrier comes over and does all their feet and says man is he proud cut?? I say i dunno.... the horse is quite the talker and so I tell him what he does and he says I bet he is proud cut!
Well the first couple rides go great, we use all of his own tack on him and everything! NOW we can't get him to take his bit, we tie them to the trailer while tackin up and he sat right down on his butt or he comes off his front feet. So then I try lunging him before taking his bit and he still won't take it. We have completely checked his mouth, teeth and lips, there is nothing wrong there. We have checked his feet and muscles and such, there is nothing wrong there. So now I have no idea what to do! I don't want to make it so he won't take his bit for his original owner because he will be going back to her in august. Ohhh and she has owned him for about 8 years now and he has always been the only horse.

Now it gets really interesting, last night I took my mare out and ponied the one that we are working on building back up. Left the gelding home by himself! He stood in the middle of the pen, I left him with some hay to eat, but he screamed and screamed and he would not quit! Got the girls back home and put the one mare in her pen and left mine in the yard to eat for a while and he screamed the whole time. About an hour later I put mine back in the pen with him and he come running over and was snorting and sniffing her and finally she just let out a HUGE squeal and stomped her front foot and he left her alone.
So all in all........ does he sound like he is proud cut and if so could that be part of the reason he is not taking his bit??? I have no idea what to do and for all those who read this to the end.. sorry I wrote a book!

 

[ducks4you]

Whether he is proud-cut or not, this WOULD be humerous if he was just a pasture-pet. WHATEVER he is, he lacks the manners to make him rideable--he is certainly NOT dead-broke. The sire of the Rocky Mountain Horse breed, a stud named "Old Tobe", that was ridden all over by practically everybody, WITH mares and WITH geldings, was dead-broke.
http://www.gaitedmtnhorses.com/rocky_mountain_horse.htm
Stallions, or proud-cut geldings have been known to mount geldings and mares while riders are on their backs. You can have a dangerous situation on your hands. And, what if he decides to jump your fence while you are riding one of your mares?
PLEASE Send him back, before your mares start to misbehave, too. PLEASE Send him back before YOU get hurt.

 

[apdan]

well the crazy part is that when she has him at her house, he is broke! she can ride him all over and anyone else can ride him. He used to be shown 4-H and such. So I dunno it's very frustrating. My mare is fine around him, she dosen't put up with any of his crap BUT our other mare has been ornery lately and we used to be able to let her out in the yard and now we can't. So.... I guess that does explain alot there! As of so far, he has never tried to mount either mares so that's a good thing but he does get hard when they are in heat or when the one mare is around him. Now I have to call her so she can make arrangements for us to bring him back to her parents. She is over seas for the summer! thank you so much for the input!

 

[apdan]

ohh and a side note... Friends of mine in the UP, I bought my mare from them. They had a rocky mtn stud and he was like that! He cld be rode by anyone and around any other horse, mare or gelding and he was an angel! I used to ride with them when I was in college and any of the colts that he threw were the same way! They had to watch out more for the mares when they were in heat then they did the stud!

 

[ducks4you]

Sorry to post harshly, but it is surprising what many people will tolerate when they get attached to an animal. Since many people think that Arabians and Thoroughbreds are a little crazy, I talk about my Arab to find out if anybody else has owned/loved one like me. I have heard stories like this one:
"I used to have a Arab that only I could ride. We really got close when I had to nurse him back to health. You see, he threw himself into the fence (while I was riding him) and scraped up his side pretty good. After he recovered, I got on and we went to spinning around. After that, we had some pretty good rides."

I N E V E R kept a horse that consistently misbehaved like that.
Recently, one of the trainers who has an RFD.tv program said, (loosely quoted,) "Most horses today are overBRED, overFED, and underTRAINED."
I've been analyzing what made my older herd so good--I kept 3 horses until they died in 2008 and 2009, all in their early/late 20's. I used to use them (and some others, as well) as lesson horses, all lessons were one hour long. From April to October I taught 2-3 lessons, Monday-Thursday evenings. From October to April, I Taught 3-5 lessons/Saturdays on them. I ran the numbers and over a ten year period each of my horses were worked (lessons only, NOT to add my pleasure/hobby riding or family trail riding vacations to it) over 400 hours every year. (I stopped my teaching business after 10 years, but YOU can do the math.)
I wanted to know this because I want the same results from my current herd. I know own a 12 year mare, and two 4 year old geldings.
Youngest DD has the time and interest this summer to help me train, so we are out just about every morning (early) and we ride for 40 minutes. We both work, you see. My mare was practically perfect when I bought her in 2008, but she does need more muscle. My 4 year old QH is still pretty green, but I have now put in about 90 days training on him. My 4 year old KMH was well broken to trail ride when we bought him June, 2009. I am currently working on fine points and collection with him.
I rode this morning with DH. I have 73 more days to train my geldings until our next event in late September. I have 13 months to finish them to our hobby before the first of the 150th National Civil War Reenactments (that's our hobby) cycle begins with "Wilson's Creek" ( in Missouri.)
When my DD works our QH ("Buster,") in our training ring I do LOTS of work around them. I weed, feed the chickens, move equipment--I even start the mower, and the truck, and open/close the garage door. The dogs, who have made fast friends with my herd, run around and play while we ride. Sometimes they dash out of the bushes and we get a little spook. But it's all good in the end.
The gelding that threw me and broke my arm in 2004 was never one of my lesson horses. I had super-well broken horses in his herd, and I didn't bother to finish him, so he wasn't prepared when the cannon went off right next to him, and he threw me 9 feet in the air and broke my arm. In May....no summer riding for ME that year. I'm really glad that I ride in covered stirrups, else I could have been dragged. THAT would have meant no riding EVER for me.
By the WAY, EVERYBODY could ride MY Arab, "Corporal."
Sorry about the long story. Just want YOU to be safe.

 

[patandchickens]

You might consider changing the thread title cuz honestly this has NOTHING to do with "proud-cut". Indeed, what people usually refer to as "proud-cut" has nothign to do with what it supposedly is from ie. having left some testicular tissue during gelding. It's just variations in personality and training.

Some horses *are* blowy and/or "talkative", especially so when they've recently moved to a new place.

And if he was "dead broke" for your friend, and perfectly fine on your first few rides but NOW won't take the bit, it is almost certainly "pilot error" i.e. you need to get your friend over to show you how to do things right with him. Or a good trainer. But the horse's real owner would be the best option.

Truly. I know you consider yourself experienced with horses but you are just doing something wrong here and need someone to be there in person to point out what it is.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[apdan]

so he wasn't prepared when the cannon went off right next to him, and he threw me 9 feet in the air and broke my arm.


heheehehe OH MY GOSH! I think if a cannon went off next to my mare she would drop dead I do fully agree with you on being safe tho! And I don't beleive you posted harshly. It's the truth! I actually already emailed my friend and sent her a huge letter explaining everything and am now just waiting on a reply!
My mare is pretty good with not spooking at stuff, I have had her jump once and I was on bareback and I just kinda slid right off, it was almost dark and we were riding out in the woods and a deer ran out right in front of her (like right under her nose almost) ... needless to say she spun around and started walking home we were on the other side of a circle trail from home so she went the other way. I hollered at her she turned and looked at me like umm.... what in the world are you doing down there. Then just stood there and waited for me to get up brush off, find a stump and jump on Other than that incident she is really awesome. She lived on the farm for awhile and can be rode around all the big tractors and semi's and such! the dirt bikes and four wheelers don't bother her and I used to ride her with my dogs all the time, she actually went down on her knees once just to not step on my dog (he was being a sissy and hiding under her). I thank God all the time for having her!
we actually last year were out riding in Hungerford Park in Big Rapids, MI and there was a guy there who was drinking heavily and his horse must have gotten loose from the trailer and it actually started coming after me and my horse, my ole girl turned right around with her back feet ready to strike and I just sat there holding on! The other horse backed off and took off running. I think he knew she meant business. When we were leaving I noticed he finally got ahold of his horse. Which in my opinion the horse would have been better off to just keep on a running as far and as fast as it could go!
But anyways.... I do fully agree with being safe and I figured our only choice was to send the gelding back home

 

[apdan]

honestly I don't think that I am an experienced rider... I have my mare that I ride and I hate riding other horses, I will but I don't like to! If they are green broke or anything like that I won't go near them. I know that I don't have the ability to "train" them. And the bad part is the geldings owner is overseas for the summer so having her there is not a possibility. And being that he is only at our house for one more month getting a trainer for him is not really feasable.
I just wanted to know if that could be part of the reason as to why he is acting the way he is. At her house he is the only horse, and here he is suddenly with two mares. If it was just an issue with him taking the bit that would be one thing, but the attitude that is starting to come out is making me wonder.........

 

[patandchickens]

I just wanted to know if that could be part of the reason as to why he is acting the way he is. At her house he is the only horse, and here he is suddenly with two mares. If it was just an issue with him taking the bit that would be one thing, but the attitude that is starting to come out is making me wonder.........

Nope, if it were an issue of him not being legitimately a gelding (e.g. a retained testicle) you would have seen it worst first and it'd be getting *better* now; if it were a not-gelded-right PLUS training issue, it might not be getting better but he'd have been a pill right from the start.

Pretty clearly this is simply an incompatibility between what he's used to and expects, and what *you're* used to and expect and need.

I would bet dollars to donuts that, with the business of not taking the bit, you are either putting the bridle up to his head in the wrong way (wrong for him, that is) or have accidentally/unknowingly bopped him in the teeth with the bit or scraped his eyeball with the bridle straps or some such thing. Or, if you are riding in your saddle and not his owner's, there may be a saddle fit problem that makes him unwilling to be ridden (no, you cannot tell for sure just by eye and feel).

As far as being vocal, and interested in the mares, well, he just moved to a whole new place, what do you expect? A LOT of horses will call and be unhappy about leaving what little "herd" they have, when they're in a new place. And if either of your mares are in heat right now (some are pretty subtle about it), many many many perfectly-normal geldings will react to it. Heck, some perfectly-normal geldings are capable of doing the entire breeding act to completion, minus the um actual donation of genetic material -- not proud cut horses, just plain ol' normal geldings, some of them.

Honestly, I do not think it makes any sense to interpret this as hormones. It's *handling*, and expectations.

If the owner is overseas, is it possible for you to phone her up and discuss your bridling problems? If you describe what you are doing, and she describes what *she* usually does, there is a good chance that you will go "aha, that's the problem!".

Otherwise, I would advise a trainer. It is not like you have to send him to a trainer or anything -- he does not need retraining, you just need a (probably one-time) set of educated eyeballs to see in person what's going on and set you on the right path. In lots of areas, there are good trainers who can come out to your place, maybe even just once, and see what's up and offer advice.

If you can't do that, I would suggest that you quit trying to ride this horse, and if you have to keep him til his owner returns, maybe work on doing a bunch of exercises on the leadline to improve your communication with him and maybe you can both learn a little bit from it

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[michickenwrangler]

When DH had his Appaloosa, we had been told that he had been proud cut. When we spoke with our vet about it, he said "proud-cut" is usually a behavior issue that people like to blame on those who gelded the horse rather than try to reform him. Mainly an excuse for the behavior.

Beyond that, I'd follow Pats' advice.