Genotype of my NZW

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

The eye-opening celebration is delayed until tomorrow probably, but I think I finally got a picture of the two blacks that shows the difference I have been seeing.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

I could not get a good look at their eyes yet. They are too sensitive to light yet.

The Chinchilla gene doesn't just take yellow out of the coat, it takes a little bit of black, too.

@Bunnylady, I remember once we had a self blue out of her that had a lighter color that I really liked but it was a buck and one ear lopped so we did not keep it, every now and then we get one lopped ear from her, always the same ear. I was not into the genetics of rabbits then, but we did not get another self from her with that coloring, a couple of broken perhaps.

Since I have never dealt with the chin gene...well, I guess I have been unknowingly...I wonder if it shows at all if the rabbit is Ccchd? I have read opinions that vaguely suggest it may, but nothing absolute.

I had plans to breed this same SF doe with my two SF bucks and keep a doe and a Lilac buck, if she is carrying chocolate so I can get one. However, now I am rethinking that plan because I would rather have "CC" in my lines.

I have a "Cc" SF doe that is starting into my rotation next month. I wanted her to flush out other white carriers in my bucks, but now I am beginning to think that if I get a REW buck that I might keep him to reveal what my does are carrying on the C-locus.

It is quite disappointing either way, but maybe I can turn it into a positive thing like having a rare color of SF Blues? I mean, here it is so why not make it specialty that no one else has in Silver Fox colors? I can dream....

 

[Dani4Hedgies]

Set go for it maybe get a buck of each and kindle her to each one and record your findings.

 

[Bunnylady]

I think the idea that you can see any other C-series allele hiding behind a full-color C is a fantasy. I have worked with cchd in three breeds, the Jersey Wooly, the Netherland Dwarf, and the Harlequin, and unless it was on the pedigree as a parent, I never knew who carried it until I saw it in a litter. The other alleles in the series may work as a sliding scale, but based on my experience, I believe C is fully dominant.

I once bought a Japanese Harlequin doe from one of the top breeders in the country. She was a junior when I bought her, and finished up slightly oversized for the breed - which ended her show career, of course. I mentioned it in a phone conversation with the breeder a few months later. She asked, "does she have _____ (a certain rabbit) on her pedigree?" I said, "yes, as a grandsire." "The folks I got him from also bred NZ's, and did some outcrossing for type," she told me. "Well, she does kind of look like a NZ with a fancy paint job," I mused. I didn't mind; Harlequins had a reputation for 'shrinking' over the generations, and sometimes a buck might not quite meet the minimum size in the standard. Having a rabbit at the top end of the scale gave a lot of room for shrinkage, and the breed in general certainly could stand some improvement in type!

I used that doe and her progeny quite a bit; as hoped, the infusion of NZ genetics majorly improved the body type. After a few generations, I learned that improved bodies weren't the only thing my line of Harlequins had gotten from their NZ ancestor. One day, I found a some solid white babies in a litter. On a hunch, I checked the pedigrees; this doe appeared on both (as a grand-dam on one and a great-grand-dam on the other, if I remember correctly). Yep, they were REW's. That's - what, at least 7 or 8? - generations between the REW ancestor and the color appearing; I'd had a bunch of Japanese Harlies that had even been carrying REW and I never knew. I'd had a bunch of Magpies in those intervening years, too - some had to be cchdc, but I hadn't a clue, until the REW's showed up. In some breeds, you may get "ghost chins" that reveal the fact that a rabbit is cchdc, but not every color will do that; I don't think a Silver Marten carrying c will look any different from one that has a more dominant allele as its partner - I've never noticed that they did, anyway.

I don't know what is preferred as far as intensity in the dilute Silver Fox colors. If lighter is considered better, it may fly. If more intense is preferred (and I can see where it might be, to show off the silvering), you may get a reputation for "bad color," which would mean your rabbits get looked on with disfavor by serious breeders. A little research should let you know, either way.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

@Bunnylady Thank you so much. I am just rather frustrated right now.

I was hoping to find a New Zealand White that did not throw steels, which as we all know is the sneaky gene that is difficult to breed out once in the line. However, at this point, I am concerned that I already have that problem in that my Blue Silver Fox may be a steel carrier. This is really frustrating me, because of my plans to keep at least one or two of her SF purebred offspring in her next two breedings. I expected that I might have some surprises with the two SF rabbits I have bought, but not the doe I have had for four years, that I now know is carrying chin...and possibly STEEL!

I believe you are right that in Silver Foxes judges want blues with the deeper color (I am told, as I do not show, but I might be going to see a Silver Fox show soon) but things change. I remember hearing people say lion heads would NEVER be accepted and showable....and yet they are as of a few years back. Blue New Zealands, same, and many others. So, when there is popularity and developing of a standard, new breeds and new colors are a future possibly.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

The solid black could be a "super steel," so you can't be sure about self (a) in the buck.

@Bunnylady, I have a question on this that did not come to me until tonight. If the NZW threw Black Gold-Tipped Steels in two breedings, this being one with my Blue Silver Fox and another to my Black Gold Tipped Steel, wouldn't he have to be "Aa"?

Also, the breeding with the Black Gold-Tipped Steel doe produced a black that looks like she is showing some steel on the sides. I thought she might be silvering because there is some SF in the doe, but it does not look silver. Could she be a super steel? She is completely black everywhere else.

 

[Bunnylady]

Steel (Es) is weird. Combined with normal extension (E), it turns what would be a normal chestnut into a gold-tipped steel. Combined with any other allele in the E series, it may or may not show ticking. Have I shown you this rabbit?

She is a genetic steel - A_ Esej. What may look like silvering is just the effect of sunlight on shiny fur - she's solid black.

 

[Bunnylady]

This is her son; his father was a red, so I know he has to be A_Ese.

Two copies of Steel (EsEs) can be solid black (or chocolate, or blue, or lilac) exactly like a self, even if the animal is AA.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

@Bunnylady You showed it when we were talking about the steeled tan-patterned on another thread.

And my Silver Fox should have an "E" SO....I really am developing a very strong dislike for "A_ Es_" combinations. Too unpredictable and messy.

Thanks again.

 

[Bunnylady]

Yeah, I was pretty sure I had. The point being, even an animal that has the gene for the agouti pattern can look like a self, when steel is involved.

Some say that selfs with steel will show ticking, but I don't understand why that should be so. If you think about a hair as potentially having yellow and black pigments all through it, the Agouti gene restricts the black pigment only to certain areas, allowing the lighter yellow pigment to be seen where the black isn't. The steel gene kind of pushes the black back into some of the area that the Agouti wants to reveal, resulting in a much darker version of the Agouti pattern. On a self, the black is all through the hair shaft anyway, so what light areas are there to be seen as ticking?

I'm amazed at the places that steel turns up. I've seen posts from people who have done Californian crosses and came up with steels. I know folks do a lot of different outcrosses for a lot of different reasons, but why would steel be in that breed? Flemish Giants show in a Steel Grey, and of course the Lops have it, but most commercial-type breeds would have no reason to have it, and crossing to a Flemish or a Lop would wreck the fine bone that a Californian is known for. It's a "puzzlement."