Getting my old confidence back--NO MORE BAD HORSES!!

[michickenwrangler]

HEY DUCKS!!

Your message box is full!!

 

[dianneS]

I trust in ducks4you's judgement, and there are *a lot* of "bad" horses out there. As has been demonstrated by ducks4you and michickenwrangler not all bad horses have to have a bad end. Most of the horses depicted in their stories have gone on to new owners and new prospects. Sometimes it takes a special person to work with a difficult horse, that doesn't mean the first person was incapable it just means they don't have that connection and that ability to know what to do. Many of the users on this forum are accomplished and experienced horse people and would have thought about/checked all the possibilities you listed. Your attitude was definitely uncalled for.

Agreed about ducks4you's judgement as well as the unecessary attitude.

I don't see anything wrong with knowing your limitations when it comes to working with certain horses. If you don't have the connection needed with that particular animal, or it turns out that the behavioral problems are more than one bargained for, the responsible thing to do is turn it over to someone else, hopefully more capable of turning that animal around.

I have no desire to take on problem horses at all, I like mine older, more experienced and well behaved. Does that mean I shouldn't own horses at all? I don't think so.

If you don't want to risk your own life and limb to rehab a problem animal, that is perfectly understandable. I know I wouldn't. Why risk injury to yourself or someone else just to look like some kind of horsey hero?

And TheMiniaturePony, I would watch the use of the word b*tchy on here, I got in trouble for using the word cr@p on BYC. This is a family forum.

 

[currycomb]

well, after riding all kinds of horses for 30 years, i have admitted i am hesitant of getting on a new or unknown horse. i lost my old faithful last year also, but had been unable to ride him because of several health issues he had, so was fine with just letting him live out his days. funny how things work out. was given a free mare last november, starved to near death(actually aborted the foal she was carrying the morning we picked her up)she is now at a body score of 4(was a 1) and we saddled her and rode for 5 min because the saddle did not fit, was rubbing her withers(there will never be hair on her withers because she was ridden with an ill fitting saddle for too long). but she was quiet and willing. even backed up without issue. took the bit with ease and released the bit also(green horses haven't learned how to do that) so i have been blessed with another safe mount

 

[ducks4you]

i lost my old faithful last year also, but had been unable to ride him because of several health issues he had, so was fine with just letting him live out his days.

Boy, you NEVER forget them, too. It IS funny--bought my first horses on June 8, 1985, and lost my favorite, "Corporal" ARAB, 1982-2009, on June 9, 2009
It's ALWAYS going to be, , when I think about him.

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

To me the old saying 'life's too short to drink bad wine' applies equally to riding bad horses. I have been through the phase of ride everything and work it out. I got hurt a few times, nothing that would not heal thank God, and come out the other side older and not only wiser but noticed I was slower to heal. I don't risk the big bumps anymore. So I have changed my training to include way more ground work so that issues are worked out before I get into the saddle with my rescues, and that I have total trust and much more spooking out done than in my younger days. That said if a horse has too much baggage for me to get beyond, or is acting unpredictable then I don't risk myself. They go to a trainer to get sold or given away as is. Mostly I rescue starving, sick, and/or injured so when healthy if they are not going to work out I move them on. I love to train, and I will put training into them so they are more likely to get a good home if it's not feeling like a significant risk to me. I still find them all good homes, there are too many people out there that are like me when I was young, willing to try and work it out. There are companion homes too, and I still have no need ever to have to move rescues on, some stay here for years and don't get ridden.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

A lot of people seem to think that if you have a "problem" horse, you should be willing to work out the problem and not just sell them away. But honestly, if a person clashes with a horse to begin with (Which may very likely be a cause of the behavior!) or the person doesn't feel comfortable trying to "fix" the horse, then they can do a lot more damage trying to fix a problem horse than just selling it to someone else. Not everyone is cut out to fix horse's behavioral problems (I'm talking about more serious things here) and you can see this in even the best of riders. I know a heck of a lot of really, really good show people who know how to ride, but they couldn't fix any sort of problem in a horse if you threw it at them. That's why they have trainers!

We've had our share of problem horses. The first was nasty. Perfect under saddle, but as soon as you took the saddle off, he would turn on you, try to bite, and charge. This horse had some serious issues. Perhaps we could have fixed him with some time in a round pen, but we did not feel comfortable around this horse and I don't think he would have learned very much from a scared person standing in the center of the roundpen! We brought him to auction and he probably ended up as dinner, but his issues could have seriously injured someone in my family, and I was only about 12 at the time.

I do think everything should be evalutate before deeming a horse a "problem" though. Another gelding we had (and still have) developed issues from the feed we had him on. We had never had a problem with the feed (it was a sweeter feed) before but this horse just got very pushy and would bite! We were getting ready to sell him. He was definitely not the horse we had bought! My dad couldn't even round pen him because he'd charge and rear! Then we ended up talking to a bunch of people and as a last resort we changed his food. That horse is completely different. He still has a dominant personality, but he's pleasurable to ride, nice to be around, leads well, and has nice ground manners. He now round pens perfectly, loads on the trailer, and he's my choice for the trail when we go out! We still have to watch our back (Which we do with all our horses, no matter how trustworthy) but we could have sold this horse who actually had no behavioral issues at all, and missed out on having a great riding horse.

Sorry about the length of this post, but I have met my fair share of horses with issues! Some of them are caused by the rider, but some issues are caused by past owners and sometimes you just cannot (or should not) try fixing a horse yourself, especially not with the risk of injury involved. I've been riding since I was 7 (I'm 21 now) and even though I have experience and I can fix small things, I do not think I am qualified to fix something like bucking or rearing. I know I would get injured and I'd probably harm the horse more than help it.

 

[lupinfarm]

We've had our share of problem horses. The first was nasty. Perfect under saddle, but as soon as you took the saddle off, he would turn on you, try to bite, and charge. .

I used to work at/board at a facility that had a horse like this. His name was Mutima and he was an absolute nutjob. An OTTB that had been all hopped on on racing feeds even after being off the track. He was a nightmare on the ground, charged you in his stall, bit and kicked the whole way to the pasture. Had to be on single turnout because he bit and kicked every other horse around him (but had to be pastured next to 2 grumpy old shetland ponies otherwise he went mental). He had to be walked through the schoolie barn instead of walked around it otherwise he went mental, you had to circle him whenever you thought he was going to get uppity. And he would bite the rider while they mounted but under saddle, he was an absolute DREAM to ride. Perfect behaviour, perfect manners, fantastic in the ring with other horses and super performer.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

We've had our share of problem horses. The first was nasty. Perfect under saddle, but as soon as you took the saddle off, he would turn on you, try to bite, and charge. .

I used to work at/board at a facility that had a horse like this. His name was Mutima and he was an absolute nutjob. An OTTB that had been all hopped on on racing feeds even after being off the track. He was a nightmare on the ground, charged you in his stall, bit and kicked the whole way to the pasture. Had to be on single turnout because he bit and kicked every other horse around him (but had to be pastured next to 2 grumpy old shetland ponies otherwise he went mental). He had to be walked through the schoolie barn instead of walked around it otherwise he went mental, you had to circle him whenever you thought he was going to get uppity. And he would bite the rider while they mounted but under saddle, he was an absolute DREAM to ride. Perfect behaviour, perfect manners, fantastic in the ring with other horses and super performer.

It's funny how some horses are like that. This guy was an awesome trail horse, and he was a real looker too. He was a bay paint, perfect height, a little tubby but not too bad, and an easy keeper. My dad bought him from an auction after we had a good experience with our first auction horse. Again, this guy was beautiful in the sale ring! Perfect manners and everything. We were pretty sure he was drugged though, because he was fine with us for about a week. Then the bad behaviors started to show and my mom and I were afraid to even go down to the barn because he got so bad. This was during a very short period too! We had only ridden him a handful of times...not enough to make him nasty like that! Since we were still fairly inexperienced, we did not feel we were qualified to handle the problem so we sent him right back to auction. I don't think any of us were sad about it! His name was Sierra, but it should have been Diablo! He actually acted a lot like a stallion, so I have a feeling he might have been gelded late or had retained testicles. We caught him trying to mount my mare a few times.

 

[w c]

Well, actually, there is a kernel of truth in both sides. But...neither side is 100% right, either.

So you're both kinda wrong and both kinda right. In that case, the rudest post loses.

No. Seriously.

What Mini said is right, 'bad riders make bad horses', or as my old trainer said, 'they go how they are rode'. And handled. And managed.

That's very true. And people very, very often blame the horse for their own mistakes. But if that was all there was to it, there'd be 350 million people trying out for the Olympics, not 12. It is a lot more complicated than that.

I DO see people blaming horses for their own mistakes - unfairly. And even, selling a horse down the hill when they could have worked out the problem and become a better horseman/woman for it. I DO see people sometimes with horses who 'over react and under-try'. But what the other poster said, that they have done their due with hard horses and stick with the ones they click with and do well with, rather than struggling through problems - they have a right to do that too.

BUT....When you buy a 500 dollar horse you are taking a BIG CHANCE. There are a lot of bottom of the bucket horses in that price range.

When you choose a horse for yourself, it needs to be APPROPRIATE. That is an animal YOU can control, YOU feel safe with, YOU can ride, YOU can manage. AT YOUR HOME. IN YOUR SITUATION.

When you buy a horse you can't handle, don't like being around, or are scared of, you need to find a new home for that horse. That much is true. Not everyone wants to take chances and not everyone should have to.

And many of us, we DO buy 500 dollar and 1000 dollar horses and take free horses or rescue horses, because we just don't have the funds to do any different. And honestly, that is a pretty hard part of the marketplace. There are a lot of horses that are not so good in that 'price bracket'. There are a lot of dishonest sellers in that part of the market. And there are a lot of 'not appropriate for rider A...or B...or C....or...' in that group too. Other people's problems, other people's mistakes. Never trained, never trained properly, allowed to get into bad habits, or just too tense and nervous to be a family type horse.

BUT.....there's more to that, too. There's an old saying I can't quote on a family board, but it amounts to, don't look for Filet Mignon and McDonalds.

In other words....Saddlebreds tend to be very, very hot, sensitive horses. From the description I don't think it was 'mean' or 'bad' at all, it just wasn't right for you. It was not being 'mean', it probably bucked because it was ridden in different tack, something scared it, or it hadn't had enough work to settle it down. In almost 60 yrs of life I have seen only one 'mean' horse, and a whole lot of improperly trained and inappropriately chosen horses - 'bad marriages'.

So I think it's important to recognize that certain breeds MIGHT not fit the bill. Certain backgrounds MIGHT not fit the bill. That barrel racer that was taught to go into a dead run the minute he came out of his stall, he might be darn hard to change. That race track horse might still get light in his loafers when a bunch of other horses gather and he thinks it's race time. So...sure....stick with the kind of horse you want...but go with the percentages. Stick to breeds widely known for calm disposition, buy horses only after trying them out in an environment like what you have at home, try the horse out thoroughly, even asking another more skilled rider to try them out and provide an opinion.

I have a horse that you would ALSO think was 'mean'. He is just not a family horse, pleasure horse type of horse. He just isn't. I don't think you'd like any of mine. But only I have to like them, I pay their bills and they work out right for me. That gets back to APPROPRIATE.

So, that is why I said before, you're both a little right and a little wrong. As Tom Dorrance always said, 'Welllll....it depends.....'

 

[goodhors]

Having done a bit of horse trading over the years, it doesn't pay to own one you don't enjoy. You don't get out and use it as often, you are more critical of his EVERYTHING, than you are of a horse you like.

I don't care if the habit or behaviour is bad or little, if it bothers you, move that horse on. Folks in the business of training for money, who enjoy "personalizing" their special riding animal, will work with issues to fix or modify them on a horse.

Most folks seem to expect more of a "mechanical" horse, who does not have serious behavioural issues to deal with. Always the same horse to use in all settings. They usually just like being out with the horse, getting some miles under their feet. Such people often do not have the skills to deal with problem horses. Can easily over react and make a little thing much worse.

The worst part is those folks THINK they are good riders, KNOW horses! Being on old Steady Eddie whom nothing bothers, the people never have to deal with a horse who is reactive to outside things, new settings, new company to ride with. Sometimes Eddie was a bargin buy, or they just lucked onto him while they were looking. Unfortunately, such riders often want to "move up" to a prettier, younger, flashier animal. They are EXPERIENCED riders now, and never realize what a gift old Eddie was!! They are never happy with the newer animals, won't PAY for the better trained animals of higher caliber. The better trained ones have the hours on them to be solid, reliable, and hours equal value.

As a younger person, my friend bought a lot of Auction horses for resale. She has a good eye for horses, we sure had time for riding and were totally determined to "improve" these animals so we "made money" on them. We did get a lot of riding done, learned a LOT about horse thinking and retraining!! I can't think of any who were not more useable when we finished, but the profits were not great. Our work added anyplace from $25 to $200 on the resale price. To kids that was a fair amount of money, so we were pretty happy about it. I usually got stuck riding the ponies, since her legs were so long. At the time our standards of excellence were not extremely high, and neither were the folks we sold them to.

Her good eye helped develop my knowledge, experience in looking at and choosing animals that would be trainable. Animals that would stay sound, had a brain to work with.

Nowadays we have some VERY nice horses. You save up to buy them, buy foals and raise them, but get up to the better QUALITY of animal! All here are FUN to work with, enjoyable to train and use. The horses of the past have made us GRATEFUL for having such nice animals now. Husband and I have very high standards of excellence set for our horses, having had the dinks in the past. The pukey acting ones don't live here!! We have had some come and go, horse is not willing to work around to our thinking, so they had to go. If horse is not fun to play with, he goes. Bad habits in the barn, in the field, nasty habits, either get fixed or horse goes. Result is horses that are fun to live with and use. We are totally unwilling to "settle" for a horse who is almost what we want. Pretty never comes into the picture, sound, kind, cooperative, are the criteria we use first.

We drive the horses mostly, Combined Driving is our favorite Competition activity. So getting a horse driving is something we mostly do our own training on. We fine tune their riding side to, so it suits us better. These are not beginner horses, though they are quiet, reliable and our kids ride and show them. Husband makes jokes about it may LOOK like just a large, plain horse, but there is a Ferrarri engine under the hood!! Only takes the asking, for whatever horsepower you need to become evident!! My kids are not passengers, they are good enough horsemen that they can manage such horses in all the situations they encounter. Kids may not win tops in robot-rider Equitation or stylized jumping, but they can ride the horse over short or high fences in the ring or Cross Country, gather cattle or ride trails all day long. No refusals, no fights. Horse comes in happy, not sore, not sweaty, kid is smiling. To me, that is the kind of riders I want them to be!! Kids have enjoyed the horses in Pony Club activities, now doing 4-H, did ALL the activities offered using the same horses. We get a lot of compliments on the kid's skills, ability of horses to switch from Pleasure classes to jumping or speed, stays calm and good enough to win ribbons in all of them. Kids are using various animals, same results on all of them because they are good minded horses. They are of similar breeding.

The horses each have a LOT of hours on them, making horse skilled, able to be a complete athlete. Even putting a 5 figure price on him, probably equals less than 50 cents and hour for training invested. We don't push young animals, their brains aren't screwed in enough to train until about 4yrs old. Old fashioned training, handling, slow and understood by horse, because we expect to usually keep these animals until they die. Only those who fail the Driving training get sold on. And they make good horses in other disciplines, all buyers have called back to see if we have more to sell. Our selling a horse really doesn't happen often though.

Over the course of daily living, when you handle them, work with them, it all comes down to enjoying your horses. If they are not easy to live with in all areas (our highest compliment), in whatever kind of using you like for horses, then you need to modify the horse or let them live elsewhere. You spend too much money, time on your horse, to not be enjoying your time together.