Great Pyrenees rough with sheep

[Ridgetop]

I agree with Baymule about the new sheep behaving differently. The new sheep probably didn't stay with the old flock either, and that might have worried Bindi since she was only 6 months old and still a puppy. She may have worried about being able to protect 2 separate flocks in different parts of the field. Or she may have seen the running sheep as a threat to her own flock. You will have to start over with her training. You have done a good job with your training, but she is young and has no older, experienced dog to guide her. If we had not already had a beautifully trained older LGD Bubba would have really made me crazy. As it was, Rika disciplined him in ways I could not, and we trained him in other ways.

Is this Bindi's first lambing season? The birthing fluid smells and lamb cries make LGDs much more protective than usual. This is instinctual because those birthing smells and cries are what bring the predators in.

In the case of your ewe and newborn lamb, a young guardian dog may be so desperate to protect the new lamb that she will try to steal it. That makes the young ewe (especially first time moms) try to butt the dog away from her newborn. The young dog sees the mother's protective actions as dangerous to the lamb and tries to bite the ewe. This is what we have been dealing with for the past 2 lambing seasons with our male, Bubba. He will be 3 in March and this is the first lambing season where he has not been crazy to steal the newborns. I have written about how our female punished him for being so wild in the barn during lambing season.

Put Bindi on a leash and work with her keeping her distance from the new mom. When she is calm, you can let her approach. She should lay down in front of the ewe until given permission by the ewe to approach. You will have to do this a lot, until she realizes she needs to be calm and not rush to love the lamb. I think you will be able to work your way through these problems with more training. She is only 1 year old and that is still very much a puppy. Don't give up!
Keep up the good work with Bindi. She has shown you that she can be a good LGD until now, and will be again once you work through this with her.

 

[Rammy]

Everybody on here who knows so much about LGD just amazes me with thier knowlwdge. LGDs are in a class all to themselves for sure. It really takes dedication and patience to train them from what I read. It makes me realize they definetly require a different mindset to have one and train it properly.

 

[Don & Sandy]

I agree with Baymule about the new sheep behaving differently. The new sheep probably didn't stay with the old flock either, and that might have worried Bindi since she was only 6 months old and still a puppy. She may have worried about being able to protect 2 separate flocks in different parts of the field. Or she may have seen the running sheep as a threat to her own flock. You will have to start over with her training. You have done a good job with your training, but she is young and has no older, experienced dog to guide her. If we had not already had a beautifully trained older LGD Bubba would have really made me crazy. As it was, Rika disciplined him in ways I could not, and we trained him in other ways.

Is this Bindi's first lambing season? The birthing fluid smells and lamb cries make LGDs much more protective than usual. This is instinctual because those birthing smells and cries are what bring the predators in.

In the case of your ewe and newborn lamb, a young guardian dog may be so desperate to protect the new lamb that she will try to steal it. That makes the young ewe (especially first time moms) try to butt the dog away from her newborn. The young dog sees the mother's protective actions as dangerous to the lamb and tries to bite the ewe. This is what we have been dealing with for the past 2 lambing seasons with our male, Bubba. He will be 3 in March and this is the first lambing season where he has not been crazy to steal the newborns. I have written about how our female punished him for being so wild in the barn during lambing season.

Put Bindi on a leash and work with her keeping her distance from the new mom. When she is calm, you can let her approach. She should lay down in front of the ewe until given permission by the ewe to approach. You will have to do this a lot, until she realizes she needs to be calm and not rush to love the lamb. I think you will be able to work your way through these problems with more training. She is only 1 year old and that is still very much a puppy. Don't give up!
Keep up the good work with Bindi. She has shown you that she can be a good LGD until now, and will be again once you work through this with her.

You have all been so kind to respond and give me advice. I have read and re-read what you’ve written. You are correct, the new flock of 10 stayed to themselves for a long time. We’ve only had sheep a year. We started with 6 pregnant ewes that we bought from a friend. Three had lambed when neighbors dogs got in and killed 3 ewes and 3 lambs. It was a horrible experience. We had a miniature donkey but she was in another field with other animals. This is why we decided to get a dog. We now have 2 miniature donkeys and Bindi. She was very small when our other lambs were born so yes, this would be her first lambing and right now we have 15 new lambs. I can you that it has been a trying year!

The 10 sheep we bought had foot rot unbeknownst to us at the time which spread to all of the sheep and we have battled one thing or another for a year. I’m feeling a little defeated

 

[Ridgetop]

It sounds as though you have had a really bad year or two. Bad stuff happens but you are strong and will pull through. Your determination to get through this set back with Bindi shows this.

Since this is your first lambing with Bindi, I would definitely start training her with the new lambs and mamas. Don't allow her access to the new lambs and their mothers unless you have her on a leash. Put her on a leash and you take her into the pen with the new lambs and mamas. Don't allow her to get too close to the lambs, pull her back at least 6' away. Proper behavior of a guardian dog around a ewe and her new lambs is for the dog to approach slowly and calmly to within 4 feet of the ewe and new lamb, then lie down and wait for the ewe to get used to the dog's presence. If the ewe is a first time mama, this can take longer than with a ewe that has lambed before and is used to lgds. Bindi will be over eager to approach the new lamb and must learn that she has to wait for the mama to allow it. This can take the entire season and maybe even next lambing season as well. However, she will learn. Take her into the enclosure several times a day on a leash. and only let her approach the lambs slowly. Praise her when she stops at least 4' from the lambs and ewes. This will help her learn to be calm and quiet around new lambs. If she breaks and gets too excited, back her up to 8' away and start over. Once she shows the correct behavior, praise her and leave the pen. Don't stay too long, just long enough so she can manage some calm behavior and be praised for it. Eventually she will learn. You might have to repeat this training next lambing season, but eventually she will get the idea. Remember she is not attacking the ewes because she is vicious, she doesn't understand that the lambs belong to the mama ewes and not to her. She is attacking the ewes for what she thinks is dangerous behavior to the lambs. Once she is calm and quiet, and the ewes are used to her coming into the pen and do not see her as a threat, they will let her love on the lambs. That will cement her bond with the flock and the lambs. If you are keeping ewe lambs as replacement ewes, they will be more accepting of Bindi when they lamb since they will have bonded with her from birth.

As for the foot rot, trim their hooves close and treat with Coppertox. It should help.

Hopefully the new sheep will start to flock with the old ones. As they get used to your place they will not run as much. Especially now that they have lambs they should be calmer, especially with their udders swinging. Our sheep still run out into the pasture from the barn in the morning and run back into the barn from the pasture at night. Otherwise they only run when something is after them and the dogs usually run past them to find out what they are running from. When the sheep run, the dogs get upset because they think something is chasing their sheep and they run to see what it is. The sheep running may have confused Bindi at first.

Let us know how things are progressing.

 

[Baymule]

Everybody on here who knows so much about LGD just amazes me with thier knowlwdge. LGDs are in a class all to themselves for sure. It really takes dedication and patience to train them from what I read. It makes me realize they definetly require a different mindset to have one and train it properly.

AMEN to that! I don't know what I would have done without this forum.

 

[Baymule]

Can you take her off the chain and put her in a pen next to the sheep? I finally got my female Great Pyrenees, Paris to accept the sheep by weaning lambs in her yard, with them in a pen to protect them from her, until she accepted them as hers. The secret was to put them in HER territory, thus she protected them because they were on her ground, and gradually accepted them.

cow panels make great temporary pens, loading chutes, hoop shelters, etc. Every farm should have a half dozen of them to drag around and "make" things. LOL Make her a cow panel pen with T-posts. Make the gate with a half panel, attach it with hog rings (one of my favorite building supplies) and latch it with clips.

 

[Don & Sandy]

Would you advise getting a second puppy at this point? I’ve been reading back posts and that seems to have been suggested a number of times.

 

[Ridgetop]

NO!
Bindo herself is still a puppy and has reverted to some behavior problems around the sheep. Until you get Bindi's behavior under control, you don't want to bring in another puppy. The new puppy will learn the bad behavior from Bindi. Then you will have 2 misbehaving puppies to train. You need to work with Bindi to calm down and be trustworthy with the sheep and new lambs. Remember that lambing is almost over for you and there will be no more newborn lamb learning/teaching for Bindi until next lambing season. Next year when the ewes start to lamb again Bindi may return to lamb stealing behavior and you will have to do more training to prevent problems. Our 3 year old male Anatolian took 3 lambing seasons to learn that newborns were off limits until their mamas gave the ok.

I think you should wait to get another puppy until Bindi is around 3 years old. By then Bindi will be a good role model, and will be able to help train the new puppy. The new puppy will learn from watching a well trained Bindi interact with the sheep. Bind will be young enough to play with the puppy but mature enough to head off any sheep chasing puppy behaviors.

Definitely do not get another puppy while Bindi is having these behavior issues. Sort them out first, and when she has developed into a trustworthy LGD, start shoping1

 

[Don & Sandy]

Ok, good. Thanks!

 

[Don & Sandy]

Today was a great day for Bindi. Spent 3 1/2 hours at the barn and pasture with her and the sheep and lambs. Started out with her on a long lead as we went among all of the lambs and mamas, as well as our new miniature donkey baby. I then turned her loose and kept a watchful eye. She is very good with No and Come commands and so eager to please. She walked the perimeter of her fields which is about 4 acres which gave her good exercise and then would go in and out of the sheep checking out the herd. A few times she went nose to nose with a mama and I could see from her posture that she was thinking, “bring it on” I’m the big dog here so I immediately called her down, which she did and went on. We are working on a big pen so we can let her loose with the sheep still around her.