Have you lost a baby disbudding??

[Onyx]

It's a real conundrum for me too.

It reminds me of when I got into rabbits and was told, matter of factly, that I had to tattoo my animals. There was simply no choice in the matter if I wanted to show rabbits. After seeing this done I was horrified. The process was brutal and the animals scream and struggle.

I went along with it even though I never felt it was right. I started going to someone who used a tattoo pen as soon as such things became available. This is a much gentler way to tattoo. Afterward I felt ashamed. I thought, all these years I went with the flow even though I knew it was hurting my rabbits... now that I don't have to do that anymore, the blinders have fallen off my eyes because accepting that it's something I don't think is right, no longer has any negative consequences for me. Now I'm not saying that everyone who tattoos their rabbits this way are horrible people or anything like that, just that for ME, I allowed convenience to dictate my actions instead of what I felt was right.

I want to make sure that if I decide to disbud, it's for the right reasons and not just because I feel pressured into it by convenience, or what is considered to be acceptable by others.

If I do opt to debud it definitely won't be done without some kind of sedative. I don't believe a topical anesthetic would be of much use in this case to be honest. I am wondering if it's possible to have the vet administer a sedative and then do it myself with icing in between each application or if I could have a vet do it this way. I don't want scurs! I am concerned with the possibility of goats getting stuck on fences, etc due to their horns though. I have had a tragic experience with another animal with this and so it's a very sensitive subject for me. I definitely believe that enduring some pain is better than being strangled to death on a fence. I would also feel responsible if I did not debud and I had a goat injure another goat with their horns.

 

[samssimonsays]

It's a real conundrum for me too.

It reminds me of when I got into rabbits and was told, matter of factly, that I had to tattoo my animals. There was simply no choice in the matter if I wanted to show rabbits. After seeing this done I was horrified. The process was brutal and the animals scream and struggle.

I went along with it even though I never felt it was right. I started going to someone who used a tattoo pen as soon as such things became available. This is a much gentler way to tattoo. Afterward I felt ashamed. I thought, all these years I went with the flow even though I knew it was hurting my rabbits... now that I don't have to do that anymore, the blinders have fallen off my eyes because accepting that it's something I don't think is right, no longer has any negative consequences for me. Now I'm not saying that everyone who tattoos their rabbits this way are horrible people or anything like that, just that for ME, I allowed convenience to dictate my actions instead of what I felt was right.

I want to make sure that if I decide to disbud, it's for the right reasons and not just because I feel pressured into it by convenience, or what is considered to be acceptable by others.

If I do opt to debud it definitely won't be done without some kind of sedative. I don't believe a topical anesthetic would be of much use in this case to be honest. I am wondering if it's possible to have the vet administer a sedative and then do it myself with icing in between each application or if I could have a vet do it this way. I don't want scurs! I am concerned with the possibility of goats getting stuck on fences, etc due to their horns though. I have had a tragic experience with another animal with this and so it's a very sensitive subject for me. I definitely believe that enduring some pain is better than being strangled to death on a fence. I would also feel responsible if I did not debud and I had a goat injure another goat with their horns.

I agree totally. I did not feel right about the clamp tattoo AT ALL. It never sat right with me and I heard of all of these people having rabbits backs break because of using this method... I use the pen and have been for 8 years. my first few were done at fair time by experienced people... That is probably how I would do it with disbudding as well... have someone else do it but then again, do they really need it? I am too new to goats to know the answer to this question... But if for any reason I do not have to do it, I am all for that reason. Otherwise if it is necessary I will get it done some how...

 

[Onyx]

This is a tougher one for me than the tattooing issue because there are more compelling reasons on both sides. The primary reasons to disbud that I know of are (in no particular order):

a) you can't show an animal that is not disbudded (only true for some breeds)
b) I have heard that you can't even REGISTER some breeds if they are not disbudded??
c) goats with horns can get their heads/horns caught on fences, feeders, gates, ropes, etc. more easily than goats who are disbudded.
d) when you have goats with horns it can be difficult to keep a mixed herd that has disbudded goats because the horned goats have a decided advantage regarding "pecking order".
e) horns are full of blood vessels and if a horn is broken, a goat can very easily die of blood loss. Injury to adult horns can cause very serious issues as a developed horn connects directly with the goats sinuses, and the horn contains many important blood vessels and facial nerves.
f) goats can injure each other, injure people, or other livestock with their horns, even without any intention to be aggressive.
g) goats with horns can cause a lot more damage to farm infrastructure like fences.

Personally I do not believe in causing unnecessary pain to animals whether they are pets or farm animals... on the other hand I accept that life is not all rainbows and butterflies, that every life is going to have some pain - that's part of living - and it may sometimes be necessary for the greater good.

I'm still undecided on what to do, myself. If my first goats end up being disbudded already by the breeder though, I will almost certainly continue to disbud so that I don't have a mixed flock. I don't think that's really fair.

 

[Southern by choice]

We have always had ours sedated and also given a nerve block.
However, we have just started disbudding our own.
No sedative.

Why?

Several reasons.

Before I get to that I would like to say many think that the vet will overburn because the animal is sedated. Not true. Actually less likely as they can take their time and there is no rushing. So shorter burn cycles and snipping out the bud.

The amount of kids we have kidded and the constant back and forth and "no not this one, not ready wait 2 more days" etc just got to be too much. Sometimes 3-4 vet visits in a week. I don't have the time.

I found that I was wanting to grab the iron because I knew that on the one side it wasn't enough... each time I had to take the goat back for a redo because a scur was forming. Now, I catch it quick so it can be reburned, but there again another visit, and sedation, and burn.

We have not had any issues until this year with the sedation... and 2 of our goat kids didn't do too well. Our vet was also very concerned. We think one of our kids is not right in the head... not sure if it was sedation or burn. None have ever been overburned. We have never had swelling either. I have seen swelling and closed eyes on other goats that were disbudded bur we have never had that.

We work with several vets so I decided to call in another vet that is mobile. Vet came out on a farm call and the purpose was to teach us how to do it ourselves. Seeing it done many different ways and talking with the vet for awhile we opted for his method.

This vet is very supportive of those wanting to learn to do all they can for their animals and the hands on approach. Step by step and then I did one. All was well. We knew we would have a few more to do so I asked if I could call and give him a heads up in case I royally botched something...
Sunday the 29th I did my first 2 on my own.
It was fine. I do not get nervous about things like that it is just another procedure but at the same time ANYONE can lose a goat in the process.

It has happened to vets and breeders with years of experience.

I am comfortable without the sedation and honestly I prefer doing it myself at this point. If I lose a kid it will be on me and I will not need to wonder and there can be no blame.

 

[Onyx]

@Southern by choice I think AFTER I've seen it done by the vet a number of times I may opt to try it myself as well (if I decide to disbud). But I'd never want to do it without sedation of some kind... I wonder if icing ahead of time would numb the area well enough... as well as icing afterward.

 

[samssimonsays]

Wow I didn't realize that there was so much behind disbudding. I don't even know if the Alpine goats get horns lol! I really need to find this stuff out... None of the full Alpine goats the lady has have horns, the Alpine/Boer crosses do. The boers do. So maybe I won't get a mix.... :/ I have had horrible luck with rabbits and losing babies nothing related to anything I do I have a feeling I would have bad luck with this as well...

I really hope it wasn't related to the disbudding Marge23. Thank you for sharing this thread it is certainly helping me learn about all of this before I need to know what to do! I am however, sorry that you had to go through it at all..

 

[Marge23]

Im sorry to scare you. As far as I know it is very rare from what people said. I do believe she has never had it happen in 20 years but i don't know. Its hard to say. It could have just been a fluke, it doesn't make it okay, but i guess it happens. I've never even heard of it until now so it cant be that common because I have read tons! But I still think disbudding is the best route even though this happened.

 

[Southern by choice]

I wrote an article about this-
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

at the end I also posted a thread I'd put up about Millie... our lamancha that we had to actually de-horn.

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/page-2#post-358403

Goats have horns unless they are naturally polled.
Dairy goats are generally disbudded.
I have never heard of not being able to not register an animal because it hadn't been disbudded.

I should probably update the article.

We have strictly gone to disbudding and the main reason is accidents happen and when I have 20 goats crowding me and pushing to get something that they think they want it gets dangerous. A few goats is one thing... 20-30 - 40 is another.
Little children simply have their eyes right at the level of a Nigie's horns. Personally I don't like seeing horned goats around young children.

 

[Southern by choice]

oops meant to add.... I never thought I would do it without sedation either but for me it isn't a matter of expense or even convenience it is really faster and less of an issue than I ever thought it to be.

I am always willing to try different things and when I do, I try to share without bias of the findings.
Always be flexible, watch, learn, and try different ways of doing things on your farm and in the end do what works for you. Sometimes a way that was working may not work later.

 

[Hens and Roos]

Based on what DH told me, we will probably be doing our own dis-budding. He has done some when growing up on his family dairy farm.