Hoping to add a LGD to the homestead

[angelfishfan]

So I have a shy 3 acre small farm and we have lately been looking into expanding our goat herd, and are seriously considering a LGD.
I am an avid animal lover, but also understand how farm life and all works. That said, I have never had a working canine, only family companions.
I currently have about 25 chickens, they have their own enclosure, no longer free range since they couldn't leave the neighbors garden be.
We have 7 goats, 4 of them are kids right now.
We also have 2 family dogs, a neutured lab mix who is about 10, and a spayed doxie mix, about 5.
We also have a barn cat to keep the rodents at bay.
We hope to expand the goat herd by about a dozen or so in the next couple years, and have NO IDEA where to start looking, or what to consider with a LGD.
There is so much conflicting info. Some say you have to raise em up and train em yourself, others say to buy them trained. Another place I read to get them in pairs or to only get a pure breed.
Then there is the daunting task of finding someone at least in my state that is doing it all right and being legit and not getting a puppy mill doggy.
Any advice would be helpful.

 

[Ridgetop]

Are you currenty having predator problems? If not, then considering a pup is okay. If you already have predators attacking animals, the predators will kill the puppy until he is big enough to protect himself. If he is intimidated by predators too early, he will not develop the self confidence to become a good guardian.
If you are not having any predator problems, then take your time and check articles on line, call and talk to different breeders or different breeds, etc. Don't worry about finding a dog near you. Once you decide on a breed and breeder, they usually have puppies being bred out of their dogs in different states and will put you in touch with the owners.
Some good places to start for you would be the Idaho Sheep Station research on guardian dogs. Other ag universities have also done studies in the early 80's when poisoning and trapping became illegal. The early research will not be exactly correct now with respect to some of the breeds since many of them have been improved in temperament since the early days. Some of the breeds, including Anatolians, were too aggressive back then which is why we went with Pyrs. With young children, friends and family coming to ur place often, we couldn't have a super aggressive tempered guardian. They have improved many of the breeds since then.
Erick Conard's Kucky Hit Farm website is very good. He has articles he has written from his 30 years breeding, training and working with Anatolians as well as articles from other people who have different guardian dogs. His website is super informative. You have to wade through all the pix of his dogs - he is very proud of his dogs - but once you get to the articles they are very good reading. He doesn't respond to e-mails since he is in a dead zone but is very happy to talk to anyone on the phone about guardian dogs and expecially Anatolians which is his breed.
Do as much research as you can before buying. If the breeder doesn't OFA guarantee the dog against hip dysplasia, doesn't let you see how they train their dogs, and doesn't have a "return-to-breeder" clause on the dog, steer clear. A show pedigree is just that and won't guarantee working ability although many guardian dogs are show quality and do well in the ring. Like with all livestock the "standard of perfection" is not just a beauty test. It requires clean straight limbs, good structure, proper temperament for the job, good bite with no malformations that would interfere with the dog's abilities to work and live a long healthy life. That being said, there are many dogs that conform to the standard that are not quite good enough to show but are perfect for working. I have had both showable dogs and working pedigree only. I have my dogs fixed because a dog that is fixed concentrates all his or her attention on the job. I have had a Shar-Planinetz/Maremma cross that was great, and 5 terrific Pyrs before getting the Anatolian I have now. I got the others as pups of different ages. After the first one, the others were somewhat trained by the previous dogs, but I still had to deal with puppy play behavior among the goats and sheep. One Pyr loved a young kid so much she licked all the hair off her face and neck! I had to separate them. My Pyrs were terrible roamers, but that could have been the line since they were all somewhat related. The Anatolian was 18 months and almost fully trained. She is perfect and the best we have had. She stays with the sheep, not protecting the territory from outside the fenceline!.
If you want the dog to get along with your other dogs, you might consider a puppy. Getting the sub-adult Anatolian to accept and get along with the old female dog we already had was rough. Our adult Pyr accepted the puppy LGDs readily. Major suggestion - if you will be swayed by the cuddly fluffball puppy, don't look at any litters until you have the breeder pick your pup. They are all adorable and can hypnotize you into taking the wrong one! A good breeder will ask you all kinds of questions about your facilities, family, use of the dog, etc. The good breeder wants to match you with the correct dog.
I hope this helps.

 

[goats&moregoats]

another place to check is http://www.RescueMe.org, I got two awesome Great Prys from this sight. A lot of e-mailing and information gathering on both parts, and a couple of months of waiting, but well worth it. Most of their dogs are not working dogs, but they do occasionally get those that have been working all their lives. I don't know your location, but I know they have a working Pry available now in the New England area, so they may have something in your area as well. Also you can look up the different breeds to see what is available.

Most of the time there is an adoption fee, but like my two, you occasionally fined some that are not actually in the shelter or foster homes yet. The owners have posted them through this site.

No matter what you decide, Good luck! I myself now have my heart captured by the Pry.

 

[Ridgetop]

Pyrs are wonderful dogs. Our last one had cancer and before we had to put her down to spare her suffering, she started to come into the house. We didn't have much except horses and rabbits for her to guard at the time so she probably wanted to be with us. My grandson learned to walk by pulling himself up on her fur. She would slowly stand up while he balanced then when he took a few shaky steps she wouold move forward in slow motion. Wonderful temperaments. Just do a lot of research on breeds to find what you will be happy with. The dog is a 12 year investment in love - you want to be happy with your choice.

 

[Baymule]

There is a lot of information right here in this forum. Plus there are many LGD owners who will help you.

 

[Southern by choice]

I agree with much of what Ridgetop has already shared.

Best to go with a breeder that can evaluate and select the appropriate dog for your situation. We do not let anyone "pick" one of our pups.
The breeder should be asking you lots and lots of questions.

You must be very honest and give details your breeder asks you. If you say one thing and the breeder selects a dog for a particular environment and the pup ends up in a completely different one there may be issues.

Personally the earliest we will let a pup go is 12 weeks and that is rare... most pups are 16weeks or older. There are many things a breeder can see in a 3-5 week old pup but the real make of the dog will be seen in the 8-12 week range. 12-16 the cream will rise to the top.

Expect to work with your pup. Understanding a pup is like a toddler, they need guidance. They also should not be put in a situation that will set them up for utter failure, but rather in a position to gain confidence, work their skills, and achieve greatness!
Still boggles the mind sometimes really. Yes there is the instinct but guidance is key.

I personally like pairs or teams. I do not like litter mates except under rare exceptions.
Spaying/neutering or not has no baring on their work. All our dogs are intact. Although we do not breed all our dogs. We have intact males together that do not try to kill each other even when we have a bitch in heat 10 ft from them. 2 females intact are more likely to have issues. Yet this is also in how you pair your teams.

Purebred shmurebred LOL a LGD bred with another LGD is an LGD.
They must be LGD breeds and best from working stock.

Look for a breeder that breeds for the small homestead.

 

[babsbag]

My female LGD is Pyr/toli/akbash/maremma cross and my male is pyr/toli. I personally like the mixed breeds as it brings the heartiness of various genetics along with it. My dogs are amazing and until you own an LGD you will never understand that. They are a huge part of my farm and I can't imagine raising goats without them.

When I started planning my dairy one of the rules is that no other animals can be housed with the goats. I had to ask about the dogs because if they couldn't stay with the goats there would be no dairy. The inspector assured me that the dogs are ok as they are necessary part of the operation. Smart person...

 

[Ridgetop]

Southern by choice is absolutely right - breeding for the small homestead is important. 25 years ago good LGDs were harder to find. We had gotten a Shar Planinetz/Maremma cross from a rancher in Idaho that we had flown in. He was still young and after being visited by a couple mountain lions in 2 years we got him some assistance. Our Pyr was from a Basque shepherd in Bakersfield. (Surprise! we have a huge community of Basque sheep men in Bakersfield, CA! Who knew?! Anyway our first Pyr was from him.) Both these dogs traveled. Ansolabahere ran 5000 head on leased mountain pasture whie the Idaho dog was from a 1000 acre ranch. I think now that most of the trouble we had with the dogs guarding the whole neighborhood beyond our fences was because they were bred for large herding operations. What we thought of as roaming was actually where they set their safety zone since they were usually around the house in the am and pm. Our puny few acres was just not enough for them to recognize as a ranch even though we got them as puppies! LOL Our last Pyr still roamed but not as far. She was a granddaughter to our first Pyr but out of a Pyr that had a 10 acre ranch to guard. They didn't leave that property and she was better at staying home. I had a friend with Pyrs and they never roamed. Maybe if we had been able to find a breeder for a small homestead we wouldn't have had problems. The roaming was one thing I was insistent about when checking breeders 2 years ago when we needed another LGD. We have a Lucky Hit Anatolian bitch who was 18 months old when we got her from Erick. Training LGD pups is a lot of work, and we already had a predator problem - 3 ewes and 2 lambs in less than a year. That was on a 5 acre property with bringing the sheep into the barn and locking them up at night! A pup wasn't an option.
Your LGD is not only a family member, he or she is your partner on the ranch. They work hard and save you a lot of money. (During the times we didn't have LGDs we lost around $6000 or more in dead animals.) Erick had chosen this bitch for us before we ever left to drive to Texas. We had several phone calls lasting hours. If we hadn't been totally honest with him, we wouldn't have gotten the perfect LGD we have. If he hadn't liked us and the dog hadn't liked us, he would have sent us home empty handed.
Ask questions and answer questions as honestly as you can. The breeder knows her dogs' abilities and temperaments. The breeder wants to set you up with the right dog so it is successful. It is not only good business, but good breeders love their dogs and want them in good homes that appreciate them. Nothing is sadder than an LGD whose owner doesn't understand the powerful weapon and partner they have. The good breeders are barely breaking even on their pups after the food, shots, and worming. Don't forget the cost of maintaining the parent dogs, a bitch in whelp and nursing pups is very expensive to feed. They also maintain livestock in proximity to the house to train the pups with. This livestock needs carry feed (hay and grain) which is much more costly than a herd on pasture. When you figure the time spent training and evaluating the puppies until the age of 4 or 5 months the breeder is more likely paying for the privilege of doing all this work for you! LOL
Take advantage of the breeders' experience and knowledge. It will pay off for you in getting the right guardian. Good luck!