Is a LGD, Llama or Donkey a good choice for my situation?

[Southern by choice]

@Womwotai

But one other thing you said did draw my attention. You said you are breeding 17 breeds without penning the birds. Can you explain how that works for you? I am working multiple breeds but don't pen mine either, so I'm eager to compare notes as to how that works for you.

I started to respond and realized I'd like to give a little more detail on things we have done and tried... what we changed and why. I think it will be more informative and hopefully spare you some of the issues we have experienced. I always feel like if I can give another the bigger picture and spare them some of the issues we have faced then it helps them in the long run.

I just wanted you to know... working on it...I will let you know when I post it. I may put it under "other animals" thread.

Also- there are many reasons why NOT to get siblings for LGD's.... more on that later too. Babs is right on in her post!

You also may want to look through my pups thread for 2 of the pups evaluations... once you read through you may get a better understanding... it kinda all comes together.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/minnie-blurb-pup-3-pics.27247/

The thread looks "long" but mostly has pics, but through out I do explain a good bit of what I am looking for and the whys... evals are later in the thread.

 

[babsbag]

Southern might be able to answer that question more completely for you but I have 2 border collie siblings and when I got them I had trainers go so far as to tell me that I needed to rehome one of them. The biggest problem that they said I would encounter is that the dogs would never fully bond we me as they would be bonded with each other and people would take second place. Also that they would be so tightly bonded with each other that they would never develop their own personalities and that there would be tremendous stress if they are separated.

I worked hard with those pups to avoid that. I did 16 weeks of puppy class on 2 different nights and then I did agility with one for about a year before starting the second. It paid off. I will agree that they are a tight pair, but they are incredibly bonded to us as well. However I do think it will be very stressful on them when one passes.

There were/are some challenges in training them. They don't listen well when they are with their sister

LGDs may not form that tight bond with people, some do, so I don't know if you would see the same issues. Southern could tell you more, she has sibling LGDs I think.

 

[Womwotai]

That makes complete sense - thank you! Do you think the bonding with each other is because they've been together from birth on? In other words, if you got two 10-week-old puppies from different sources, do you think the result would be different? Or is it better to get them a few months apart?

 

[Southern by choice]

The issue with sibling LGD's is a little different than "pet" breeds/dogs. In the pet world like Babs said the concern is about bonding with their humans. In the LGD world very often they will continue in the pack hierarchy that they have been in since birth. This can result in issues down the road as their autonomy may not develop well and not all will develop into their full potential.

It is true that many have sibs and things worked well but honestly most really wouldn't know. They will usually see one sib having dominance and is the "alpha" or the strength of the two. The "lesser" dog may not be a lesser dog but is overshadowed and may not preform or actually work inn a true partnership.

I do have sib males... but I am a "retired" trainer and know how to work with sibs. My males are completely different, have developed strongly, and each have their own "partner". They are intact males and extremely independent. They are in completely different areas and protect different herds.

If sibs are the only option then m/f is best, one needing fixed- preferably the male.

The key is understanding traits and pairing accordingly. I always pair a watcher and a patroller. 2 watchers are ok 2 patrollers are not a good team. A "rare" neutral can be paired with either but is usually best with a patroller.

More issue come from breeders not understanding what they are looking at. Most just let people pick a pup by "oh, that one is adorable... that one there..." If I evaluated a pup and that pup was better in a hands off 100+acre farm it would not be the right fit for a small active family farm with children and lots of family interaction.

Two pups at once if matched properly is fine... if not at the same age then 2-3 months apart is best. They can develop their teamwork best they play differently and as they are growing and playing their "play" is all about how to do their job. They practice this over and over.

Lead dogs generally will go over the back and neck... secondaries tend to go for the back legs and pull... this is important in their play. Regardless of watcher/patroller it is generally the male that will go over the back and the female that goes for the grab. "Secondaries" are not lesser dogs.

 

[babsbag]

I knew that Southern could explain it better When I had my two LGD puppies at the same time they were about 4 months apart in age.

 

[snowk]

I just read through this thread and have a question about lgds also. In a perfect world I would have a dog. I adore them, I enjoy spending time training and working with them (so far no guard dogs just very smart and athletic dogs) I have a papillion that I think would be a perfect guard if he only weighed about 50 more pounds! My problem is that I do not currently live on my farm. I live about 7 miles away. We have plans to build a house there but so far coops and barns have taken presidence. I worry that even a trained adult or pair would be difficult to work with if I only got to see them for an hour am and an hour pm? I am guessing that I will need to look into llamas or donkeys until we build but I would love to hear that I am wrong about that???

 

[WhiteMountainsRanch]

My pair is about 2 months apart in age and the best thing I ever did for my farm. Much more like "pets" (albeit working pets) than I had read. Southern is spot on though, she knows her stuff!