Lespediza Hay-Worms.

[bcnewe2]

How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others.

I hope you were not referring to my post above yours. I, in no way was trying to be condescending or dismissive. It was my intention to come across with information to what I believe and choose to do. Others opinions differ and yes learning from others is always a great way to gain knowledge we might not have ourselves.

I stated my opinions and what works for me and what hasn't worked for me in the past. That is all.

I would love to see more clinical testing done on sheep or goats but at this point it is not in the monetary gain of the pharmaceutical companies and others that might study worm loads and what to do about them in our sheep and goats. Cattle is where the money is found hence the clinical trials too. Until we get our markets here in the states to count our sheep into it's profit margins we are going to be doing more of our own testing by means of trying different things and talking amounst ourselves to further our knowledge.

Stating what my practices are and having a difference of opinion with others and discussing them is the way I choose to evolve and learn. If someone came up with something new that I haven't tired and found it worked you bet I'd be using it and talking about it too! At the beginning of my above post I even stated that I think the use of all the natural methods are helping to keep worms loads at bay. But IMO I do not think they are in and of themselves going to keep a flock worm free.

No condescending or trying to be dismissive meant.

 

[Pearce Pastures]

Oh, no not at all. Just making a general statement about how we interact here.

 

[elevan]

I'm gonna make one comment in regards to this topic of tannin rich feed and worms - If y'all want to re-read the Parasite Management article that I wrote (link in my signature below) and read through the thread that is linked at the bottom of the article you'll realize that we talked about this very subject not long ago. I, in fact, give my own animals a tannin rich supplement as an experiment. It's my hope that this thread can continue in a tone appropriate to the forum so that the discussion can continue. Each herdsman/woman must decide what is best for their individual farm and situation. Please continue while remembering the tone that we try to set here on the forum.

 

[OneFineAcre]

Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC

Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.

Yeah. I hesitated posting too, as it seems even when I am agreeing with you you tend to find something to knit-pic against.
Instead of sharing info you tend to dispute or argue. It is old.

I haven't been on here in a long time, mostly because of this kind of thing.

Genuinely happy to see you bring up this awesome plant... just don't get you 1 fine... you seemed like such a neat person. Adding info to something that you DID NOT KNOW isn't a fight or anything it is adding to already great info.... that is what a forum is. If you reject the research fine... but a forum is not just about you...others may want the info... they can decide for themselves.

OK, didn't recognize Dr. L. I do recognize Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl. He is an advisor to my NC Dairy goat breeders group. He has spoken at our meetings before. He is a brilliant researcher.

I fully appreciate research being one's life's work. My wife does pre-clinical research in toxicology.

And full disclosure for others on the site, my Dr. C is Dr. Allen Cannady who is a professor at the N.C. State Vet School. His life's work is the health and care of small ruminants.

Again, sorry if I responded the wrong way.

There may have been a misinterpretation to my original post. I was not suggesting that diet would be a substitute for giving de-wormers. I had stated that we have a number of does that have just been bred. Some of these wormers are OK for pregnant does, but some should not be used in the first trimester.

I wish you luck in growing the Lespedezia. We know some folks trying to grow it as well. They are having a hard time getting it started.

 

[OneFineAcre]

I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.

1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.

2) There is no vet that knows it all, not even "Dr. C"

3) Hay is not a dewormer either

There are certain things other than chemical wormers that can help with worms in certain ways but most are NOT wormers like people say or believe. No hay is a dewormer and neither is DE.

They are FACTS and really no disputing either of them. Do the research (not look at one "respected" person)

Again, there seemed to be a misinterpretation of my initial post. Didn't mean to suggest it was a de-wormer.

But, because we have some does that had the higher count that were just bred, we hesitate on using a stronger wormer right now.

Didn't mean to suggest we would not be giving them a dewormer at some point. And, that was not what Dr. Cannady suggested.

 

[OneFineAcre]

I'm gonna make one comment in regards to this topic of tannin rich feed and worms - If y'all want to re-read the Parasite Management article that I wrote (link in my signature below) and read through the thread that is linked at the bottom of the article you'll realize that we talked about this very subject not long ago. I, in fact, give my own animals a tannin rich supplement as an experiment. It's my hope that this thread can continue in a tone appropriate to the forum so that the discussion can continue. Each herdsman/woman must decide what is best for their individual farm and situation. Please continue while remembering the tone that we try to set here on the forum.

I read your article. Seems we fall into the category of worms coming from 20-30 percent of the animals.

Our herd had basically been closed until last summer when we bought 3 new does from a breeder in another state.

Our animals are dry lot. These came from pasture. 2 of the higher counts were them.

 

[bcnewe2]

I don't know goats. Are they not as hardy as sheep? The only wormer I know of that can't be used in the first trimester in ewes is valbazon, I might be missing one but is it the same with goats? Just curious....

 

[OneFineAcre]

I do use chemical dewormers but I also know that some foods can lower a parasite count and can inhibit their reproduction and growth. I don't' think I would personally use them as a replacement for testing and treating when it is warranted but if a certain type of hay did have properties that aided in keeping parasites are bay, I would be interested in learning more. I go back and forth about DE and have not used it because we haven't had an issue that has me looking for other avenues to keep our parasite load at bay just yet. It would be great, once again, if a substantial study was done on its use in goats or other ruminants.

Education should be an ongoing thing when it comes to how we manage our animals and as new studies are done and findings are release, practices should change. The reason I am one to beat the "test before treating" drum is because when I first got started in goats, there was so much to learn and I remember going to the store, grabbing a pelleted dewormer, and dumping it into the feed trough---thought I was doing a good thing I didn't know that was a bad idea and that treating parasites that way not only not good for my own animals or my wallet, I was contributing to the resistant parasites issues we ALL have to deal with. That is based on current studies and I am all about keeping as current as I can. If I can help someone to not make the mistakes I made starting out, especially when it comes to parasite treatment practices since they do impact other people too, I will and I hope others would do the same for me still.

How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others. I am very grateful to the folks here who have for years now helped me to modify my practices. By all means, please share and I will be the first in line to read it and learn.

Overall, I think we aren't in bad shape considering that when we bought our first 3 goats we gave them safeguard annually for the first two years. And, we haven't wormed any of the others at all.

I hear the advice on here to not worm until you test for worms and find out what you are dealing with. I agree with this 100%.

I thought it would be interesting to say "here are 13 animals and this is their egg counts"

 

[OneFineAcre]

I don't know goats. Are they not as hardy as sheep? The only wormer I know of that can't be used in the first trimester in ewes is valbazon, I might be missing one but is it the same with goats? Just curious....

I'm not sure. My wife is the one who reads the labels and calls the shots here. It may just be her opinion.

I stated she does pre-clinical research. Her specialty is breeding studies where they look at the effects of compounds on developing fetuses.

 

[elevan]

I don't know goats. Are they not as hardy as sheep? The only wormer I know of that can't be used in the first trimester in ewes is valbazon, I might be missing one but is it the same with goats? Just curious....

I'm not sure. My wife is the one who reads the labels and calls the shots here. It may just be her opinion.

I stated she does pre-clinical research. Her specialty is breeding studies where they look at the effects of compounds on developing fetuses.

Valbazon is the same with goats.

Goats and sheep can both be hardy...there are many variables that can come into play with both though.


eta: Moved this thread to organic husbandry - goats.