Let's Talk About Corid and Cocci.

[babsbag]

The VFD is the reason why some of this stuff will be unavailable at the feed stores etc.

The VFD will only impact antibiotic laced feed; antibiotic availability alone should not change...unless you live in California. But that doesn't mean it isn't coming to a state near you soon.

 

[Southern by choice]

Now it is getting more confusing.

It says it is an antagonist but what you just posted from their info says...How CORID works
Structurally, CORID mimics thiamin (Vitamin B1) which is required by coccidia for normal growth and reproduction. When coccidia ingest CORID, they experience thiamin deficiency and starve from malnutrition.

That better fits agonist-
Agonist: A substance that acts like another substance and therefore stimulates an action. Agonist is the opposite of antagonist. Antagonists and agonists are key players in the chemistry of the human body and in pharmacology.

gosh... maybe I need to go back and take some refresher courses

 

[farmerjan]

VFD will impact any antibiotic that can be added to feed OR minerals and as you said @babsbag, look at california. It CAN also impact any antibiotic that is or can be added to water delivery or milk replacers. All medicated milk replacer will fall under that umbrella according to the last vet presented meeting I went to. It is all according to the category that the "additive" falls under, as they say corid will not be affected.....yet. The vets in this state are absolutely having a fit over the added paperwork it will create as well as the responsibility of it only being allowed for a "certain" group at a certain place etc. All in the name of making antibiotics for people more effective if they are not fed as matter of course to animals......Once they have their foot in the door, IE : CALIFORNIA, it is only going to get worse.

 

[babsbag]

CA loves being the forerunner on all things stupid. Thankfully I have a good and reasonable vet and I'm not far from OR and I have a sister in OR. I keep 3 antibiotics on hand...Pen, Tylan, and oxcytet, with oxcy being the one I use most often, usually kids with respiratory. With a goat by the time I find a vet and those meds on a weekend or 2 in the morning the animal will be dead. I have never added antibiotics or even wormers to feed but I am planning on feeding feed with Rumensin to kids next year and possibly to dry does depending on withdrawal times.

 

[babsbag]

@Southern by choice Your the science buff, not me so figure this out, ok?

So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly? I have been trying to wrap my brain around this for a few years.

 

[Southern by choice]

@Southern by choice Your the science buff, not me so figure this out, ok?

So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly? I have been trying to wrap my brain around this for a few years.

Well... I put out a few calls. Of course I am not looking for the simple answer. I want to know exactly how and what it does. LOL More clinical understanding because now I am really curious.
Thanks babs

I just want you to know I was running along peacefully and minding my own business and not giving this a care in the world... til you!
grrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[greybeard]

So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly?

Babsbag, the animal itself does not 'produce' thiamine. It's in the forage it eats and is part of the breakdown that occurs in the rumen via gut bacteria. Thiamine is normally produced by bacteria in the rumen of cattle and other ruminants such as goats, sheep and deer on well-balanced roughage diets.

The cocci doesn't 'ingest' the thiamine either--it is absorbed thru the cell wall as in all protozoans and single cell entities.
As I stated earlier, it is the Vit B1 as a thiamine transporter that is affected. The things that are taking place are doing so on an extremely tiny physical and metabolic level. Remember--we are not talking about a physically large parasite--we are working against a single cell protozoa n in the case of cocci.
The thiamine transport (B1) is identified as a chemical compound--these are formed on the molecular level. (B1 and thiamine are generically referred to as one and the same as they are inseparable except on the molecular scale)
A vitamen is just a term given to any organic compound the body (any body) cannot make on it's own.

Before we proceed, lets look at how closely the thiamine and amprolium resemble each other:

To answer your question.......
The presence of thiamine continues virtually unabated in the digestive system of the animal (humans included) even if corid is introduced, as long as the same forage or food intake remains the same as before the introduction of Corid.
There is an action, in the capillary system that semi-selectively 'filters' out certain things--it's called the blood brain barrier. The walls of the tiniest parts of the capillary system are only 1 cell thick. Altho it is called the blood brain barrier, the filtered out substances are also kept from the rest of the body as well, since the blood system is mostly all tied together.

Thaimine is needed in the brain, so thiamine gets a pass. Many other things do as well, and some things are more readily passed than others--allowed in greater numbers/volume. Amprolium is one of the things that the barrier has a great affinity for--it goes right on thru. Scientists don't fully understand why or how but they do know it happens with greater ease than with other substances. (Alchohol is one substance that the barrier seem to hardly even acknowlege is there--goes zippin right on thru) Things that are stopped, are expelled via the usual route--kidneys.
That's not to say that thimine is stopped--it is not. But there is a ratio. The more corrid that is present, the more is passed thru the filter, the less thiamen is passed, tho some thiamine always is passed. Since thiamine and amprolem are so close chemical wise, the cocci protozoa absorbs way more of it than it does thiamine. Chemical similarities are there, but they are still 2 completely different things, and the protozoa cannot grow and divide without enough real thiamine.

Can the levels of thiamine be increased by giving supplemental B1 even if Amprolium has been administered? Yes, but that would negate the effectiveness of the Corid. But this is why there are limitations to how much Corid is to be administered. We are not to give so much that there is no thiamine passed thru the blood brain barriers in the capillary system.

The inhibitory effect of amprolium upon thiamine flux across the barrier could be overcome if the concentration of thiamine in the blood plasma was also raised sufficiently (by injecting [14C]thiamine of suitably low specific activity). Thus in the presence of 6 /tM of amprolium the influx of thiamine into the brain was reduced to some 30 % of the normal (Fig. 3). In two further experiments, in which this inhibitory level of amprolium was present, when the concentration of free thiamine in the blood plasma was also raised about four times from approximately 1 to 3-1 or 4-5 /SM, the influx was doubled, reaching approximately 60 % of the normal value.

 

[greybeard]

Forgot to add, the one celled protozoan at issue also has an affinity for Corid (amprolium).
Even tho there always are some values of 'real' thiamine present, the 'bug' prefers the chemical analogue.

 

[babsbag]

So can I simply say that if the animal is still eating their normal feed and the dosage is correct the administration of Corid should not be an issue? Many times goats with cocci will go off feed, maybe that it part of the problem. Also that my "gut feeling" that giving Thiamine as the same time as Corid was counterproductive is also correct; now I understand why. But Corid is a thiamine inhibitor of sorts, but only is it is used in excess.

Thanks for the explanation, it actually makes sense.

 

[casportpony]

VFD will impact any antibiotic that can be added to feed OR minerals and as you said @babsbag, look at california. It CAN also impact any antibiotic that is or can be added to water delivery or milk replacers. All medicated milk replacer will fall under that umbrella according to the last vet presented meeting I went to. It is all according to the category that the "additive" falls under, as they say corid will not be affected.....yet. The vets in this state are absolutely having a fit over the added paperwork it will create as well as the responsibility of it only being allowed for a "certain" group at a certain place etc. All in the name of making antibiotics for people more effective if they are not fed as matter of course to animals......Once they have their foot in the door, IE : CALIFORNIA, it is only going to get worse.

In addition to antibiotics that can be added to feed, all water soluble antibiotics will require a prescription. Antibiotics that will not need a VFD or prescription are bacitracin (BMD), tiamulin (Denagard), and a few others, but can't remember what they are.