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Ridin' The Range
Please don't! Your questions and all the great answers are teaching me my own mistakes and, hopefully, how to correct them.
Thanks!
Magnum- the unfolding/unravelling story of our LGD
- Thread starter ChickenMomma
- Start date
Thanks!
- Thread starter
- #32
ChickenMomma
Overrun with beasties
.
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Ridgetop
Herd Master
Never stop asking questions!
Do not use a shock collar. these don't work because the dog knows when it is on and only behaves then. You want to be able to allow the dog to be without the shock collar and trust him to behave appropriately. Shock collars are unnecessarily harsh.
Livestock Guardian Dogs are a completely different type of dog than any you will ever have. Each one can be different from the next. This difference is present between breeds, and also in the litter. Pups in the same litter often have differences in temperament and aptitude. That is why very experienced and knowledgeable breeders keep their pups for 12 weeks and test them for livestock, ranch, and personal pet aptitude before placing them in the appropriate homes.
You said that you chose this puppy yourself. Since you did not have experience with grading LGD pups, you said chose the bouncy playful one. The best livestock guardian pups are the ones that are slightly more serious. They are not so excitable, but they don't hang back either. Having established that you have one of the excitable puppies, your training will be harder but it isn't impossible to turn this little wild fellow into a good LGD. Children take a long time to raise and train. It is the same with puppies.
As to training him, you are using time honored obedience techniques. You can't do that with LGDs. Training him to watch you with his eyes and pay attention to you while you are walking him on leash in not the training you want to do with an LGD. This is proper obedience work for normal dogs. I have trained plenty of obedience dogs and you want their entire attention to be concentrated on you during the entire exercise. It won't work for a good LGD because their genetics are telling them not to watch YOU but to be completely aware of their surroundings at all times looking for threats to the flock and you. In order to do this, they have to be aware of and investigate everything around them and notice everything around them and the flock. If you have ever watched a training film on Seeing Eye Dogs, the trainer walks along and when they pass an obstacle the trainer raps it with the cane to make the dog notice it. Overhead branches are shaken, steps are pointed out, etc. Those trainers are training the dog to NOTICE surrounding obstacles because the Seeing Eye dog already has its attention fastened firmly on the trainer. The Seeing Eye dog has to be taught to look around and notice everything in order to guide his blind master. The LGD already notices everything. Training him to keep his eyes focused completely on you goes against his natural working instincts. Watching you closely won't allow him to notice the unnatural waving of the bush near the sheep where the coyote is creeping in downwind.
Yes, YOU must be the Alpha. But throw away most of what you have ever learned about standard obedience training. You can teach him many things. Other things he will never be foolproof at or even learn because they will be foreign to his LGD DNA. This learning and teaching will go on for at least 2 years.
Teaching the puppy to sit and wait before you give the command to eat is good. Otherwise the 00+ lb. dog can knock the food bowl out of your hand as you pause to negotiate the step or close the door. Bad dog! Teach him to wait.
The wait command is important because you don't want him to push ahead of you into a sheep pen or other space. You are the alpha. The Alpha ALWAYS goes first, just like they get first chance at food.
Speaking of food, just like Beekissed I train all my dogs that all food is MINE. I take the food away while he is eating. As pups I even pry open the mouth and take the food out of the mouth, promptly correcting any attempts to growl or snap. I do this with all dogs since my small toddlers might decide to do this. Now I have grandchidren and access to the food bowls by anyone is something that is to be allowed, There will be no food aggression issues on this property.
Walking on leash. Why? The LGD doesn't have to learn to heel. You only want the dog to behave on the leash in case he goes to the vet etc. You don't walk around the perimeter of the property until you have a fence there. Like Baymule says, he will expect to protect that great unfenced expanse since it is HIS.
Jumping on you - bring your knee up sharply into his gut. You should hear his "oof" as you knock the air out of him. Keep walking into him as if he isn't there, If he persists watch closely because some smart dogs realize if the come at you from the front you will raise a knee and will start to circle around and jump on yu from the back. Once you have knocked the air out of him with your knee, call him to you and fuss over him - do not apologize - just act like he did it to himself, I even coax the dog to think it can jump up again and repeat the correction. As soon as he comes to greet you without jumping up load on the praise.
Walking beside you will never happen unless there is a threat right next to you. Then the dog ill get between you and the threat and try to drive it off by barking or charging at it. Normal LGD behavior when yiu are outside is to run ahead of you to check for any threat in the pasture. Having established that it is safe they will circle back to you to reassure you that all is safe. Trained herding dogs will walk sedately at heel until given the command to work. LGDs are already working.
You will also have to teach him to respect new mothers that are lambing or kidding around him. Some LGDs love the newborns so much that they mistake the aggression shown by the new mothers towards the dog as aggression to the babies They will "steal" the baby and try to drive off the aggressive mother. Unless you kid or lamb in an enclosed pen you will have to oversee his first introduction to this.
Got to rush to an appointment. More later. If you IM me I will give you my phone number and we can talk.
I have often felt like this about my children when they were young. Oh wait, it still happens occasionally! LOL
Do not use a shock collar. these don't work because the dog knows when it is on and only behaves then. You want to be able to allow the dog to be without the shock collar and trust him to behave appropriately. Shock collars are unnecessarily harsh.
Livestock Guardian Dogs are a completely different type of dog than any you will ever have. Each one can be different from the next. This difference is present between breeds, and also in the litter. Pups in the same litter often have differences in temperament and aptitude. That is why very experienced and knowledgeable breeders keep their pups for 12 weeks and test them for livestock, ranch, and personal pet aptitude before placing them in the appropriate homes.
You said that you chose this puppy yourself. Since you did not have experience with grading LGD pups, you said chose the bouncy playful one. The best livestock guardian pups are the ones that are slightly more serious. They are not so excitable, but they don't hang back either. Having established that you have one of the excitable puppies, your training will be harder but it isn't impossible to turn this little wild fellow into a good LGD. Children take a long time to raise and train. It is the same with puppies.
As to training him, you are using time honored obedience techniques. You can't do that with LGDs. Training him to watch you with his eyes and pay attention to you while you are walking him on leash in not the training you want to do with an LGD. This is proper obedience work for normal dogs. I have trained plenty of obedience dogs and you want their entire attention to be concentrated on you during the entire exercise. It won't work for a good LGD because their genetics are telling them not to watch YOU but to be completely aware of their surroundings at all times looking for threats to the flock and you. In order to do this, they have to be aware of and investigate everything around them and notice everything around them and the flock. If you have ever watched a training film on Seeing Eye Dogs, the trainer walks along and when they pass an obstacle the trainer raps it with the cane to make the dog notice it. Overhead branches are shaken, steps are pointed out, etc. Those trainers are training the dog to NOTICE surrounding obstacles because the Seeing Eye dog already has its attention fastened firmly on the trainer. The Seeing Eye dog has to be taught to look around and notice everything in order to guide his blind master. The LGD already notices everything. Training him to keep his eyes focused completely on you goes against his natural working instincts. Watching you closely won't allow him to notice the unnatural waving of the bush near the sheep where the coyote is creeping in downwind.
Yes, YOU must be the Alpha. But throw away most of what you have ever learned about standard obedience training. You can teach him many things. Other things he will never be foolproof at or even learn because they will be foreign to his LGD DNA. This learning and teaching will go on for at least 2 years.
Teaching the puppy to sit and wait before you give the command to eat is good. Otherwise the 00+ lb. dog can knock the food bowl out of your hand as you pause to negotiate the step or close the door. Bad dog! Teach him to wait.
The wait command is important because you don't want him to push ahead of you into a sheep pen or other space. You are the alpha. The Alpha ALWAYS goes first, just like they get first chance at food.
Speaking of food, just like Beekissed I train all my dogs that all food is MINE. I take the food away while he is eating. As pups I even pry open the mouth and take the food out of the mouth, promptly correcting any attempts to growl or snap. I do this with all dogs since my small toddlers might decide to do this. Now I have grandchidren and access to the food bowls by anyone is something that is to be allowed, There will be no food aggression issues on this property.
Walking on leash. Why? The LGD doesn't have to learn to heel. You only want the dog to behave on the leash in case he goes to the vet etc. You don't walk around the perimeter of the property until you have a fence there. Like Baymule says, he will expect to protect that great unfenced expanse since it is HIS.
Jumping on you - bring your knee up sharply into his gut. You should hear his "oof" as you knock the air out of him. Keep walking into him as if he isn't there, If he persists watch closely because some smart dogs realize if the come at you from the front you will raise a knee and will start to circle around and jump on yu from the back. Once you have knocked the air out of him with your knee, call him to you and fuss over him - do not apologize - just act like he did it to himself, I even coax the dog to think it can jump up again and repeat the correction. As soon as he comes to greet you without jumping up load on the praise.
Walking beside you will never happen unless there is a threat right next to you. Then the dog ill get between you and the threat and try to drive it off by barking or charging at it. Normal LGD behavior when yiu are outside is to run ahead of you to check for any threat in the pasture. Having established that it is safe they will circle back to you to reassure you that all is safe. Trained herding dogs will walk sedately at heel until given the command to work. LGDs are already working.
You will also have to teach him to respect new mothers that are lambing or kidding around him. Some LGDs love the newborns so much that they mistake the aggression shown by the new mothers towards the dog as aggression to the babies They will "steal" the baby and try to drive off the aggressive mother. Unless you kid or lamb in an enclosed pen you will have to oversee his first introduction to this.
Got to rush to an appointment. More later. If you IM me I will give you my phone number and we can talk.
frustratedearthmother
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Ask 10 people the same question and you will get 10 different answers. As previously said: glean through the advice.
I do believe in obedience training for LGD's. Maybe I shouldn't call it obedience - I train for respect. Comes with being the Alpha. My dogs all walk quietly on a leash. My dogs will sit and "show me their tummy" on request. Why? Because it makes it easier to medicate or trim toenails or just check them for fleas. It's just good dog citizenship.
I would ask Magnum to learn these simple behaviors. They will give you both confidence when they are accomplished and help establish that bond and more importantly will establish YOU as the alpha. My dogs are both bonded to me and the stock. Recently they were faced with a conundrum that I think they reacted appropriately to. I was so proud and pleased with them and know that they have MY back along with the stock.
During a stock count earlier this year I noticed that I was missing a couple of pigs. I found a place in the furthest corner of my pasture where the fence had been tampered with and pigs had been baited to go through. I fixed the fence and didn't lose any more stock for awhile. A few weeks after that I was outside and heard a couple of pops (gunshots from a small caliber - like a 22) coming from that area and all the goats and pigs were high-tailing it back to the barn with the LGD's pushing them and looking back over their shoulders.
I went ballistic. I headed out to that part of the fence, screaming and cussing and threatening to rip the heads off of anybody who was stealing more pigs from me. The weeds were tall and I couldn't see anything and couldn't be seen either. DH was outside the fence reminding me that I wasn't armed and I said I didn't care - I'd get 'em with my bare hands. Pretty stupid in hindsight, lol.
As I looked back to answer DH I noticed Cowboy standing in front of the barn, holding the goats inside. He looked at the goats, looked at me and came charging to me. He glued himself to my side and wouldn't leave. A couple seconds later Missy was on the other side of me. They literally had me sandwiched between them and they wouldn't go away even though I "ordered" them back to the barn. They obviously were not happy with me, but I think they decided I needed them more than the goats did at that point.
I tell this as an indication of how the dogs perceive and react to threat. You want your dog to actually think, and if needed, take independent action. The goats were safe in the barn and they saw me going to address the threat - so they were my back up. All's well that ends well and there have been no more stock losses, lol. I think some folks are more afraid of 'crazy' than wanting a little free meat.
Please don't give up!
I do believe in obedience training for LGD's. Maybe I shouldn't call it obedience - I train for respect. Comes with being the Alpha. My dogs all walk quietly on a leash. My dogs will sit and "show me their tummy" on request. Why? Because it makes it easier to medicate or trim toenails or just check them for fleas. It's just good dog citizenship.
I would ask Magnum to learn these simple behaviors. They will give you both confidence when they are accomplished and help establish that bond and more importantly will establish YOU as the alpha. My dogs are both bonded to me and the stock. Recently they were faced with a conundrum that I think they reacted appropriately to. I was so proud and pleased with them and know that they have MY back along with the stock.
During a stock count earlier this year I noticed that I was missing a couple of pigs. I found a place in the furthest corner of my pasture where the fence had been tampered with and pigs had been baited to go through. I fixed the fence and didn't lose any more stock for awhile. A few weeks after that I was outside and heard a couple of pops (gunshots from a small caliber - like a 22) coming from that area and all the goats and pigs were high-tailing it back to the barn with the LGD's pushing them and looking back over their shoulders.
I went ballistic. I headed out to that part of the fence, screaming and cussing and threatening to rip the heads off of anybody who was stealing more pigs from me. The weeds were tall and I couldn't see anything and couldn't be seen either. DH was outside the fence reminding me that I wasn't armed and I said I didn't care - I'd get 'em with my bare hands. Pretty stupid in hindsight, lol.
As I looked back to answer DH I noticed Cowboy standing in front of the barn, holding the goats inside. He looked at the goats, looked at me and came charging to me. He glued himself to my side and wouldn't leave. A couple seconds later Missy was on the other side of me. They literally had me sandwiched between them and they wouldn't go away even though I "ordered" them back to the barn. They obviously were not happy with me, but I think they decided I needed them more than the goats did at that point.
I tell this as an indication of how the dogs perceive and react to threat. You want your dog to actually think, and if needed, take independent action. The goats were safe in the barn and they saw me going to address the threat - so they were my back up. All's well that ends well and there have been no more stock losses, lol. I think some folks are more afraid of 'crazy' than wanting a little free meat.
Please don't give up!
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breezy2u
Chillin' with the herd
In my experience with dog training I never, ever, chase them. They think it's a game. If my puppy ever gets loose, I turn around and walk away in a safe direction while calling. They don't want to be left out. In fact with my beagles part of their puppy training is I take them out to a forested area and let them off leash. As long as they stay with me I don't do anything, but the minute they wander too far away, I will actually stop and find a place to hide. Generally, within about 5 to 10 minutes you will find a very determined and upset puppy looking for you frantically usually by scent. You do that enough times and your dog will learn to keep their eye on you. My last beagle would actually grab me by my pant leg if she was off leash and she was worried I was going to run off.
As for the wrestling thing, next time you get him down, don't just yell and snarl, but actually bite him. And make it hard enough that he yelps. Yes, you will be picking dog hair out of your mouth, but the message will be one hundred percent clear to the puppy that you are not playing and you are in charge.
breezy2u
Chillin' with the herd
I agree about the shock collars where you administer the shock but one thing I will suggest is a proximity shock collar. They come with a little fake rock and you can get as many of them as you need. the dog wears the collar all the time and gets a warning noise when he gets close and a shock if he doesn't leave. It happens if I am there or not so he doesn't associate it with me. He just knows when he hears that sound he isn't supposed to be there. I use them to make a safe area for my chickens since my current dog will chase and kill them. But he stays far away from their yard now.
B&B Happy goats
Herd Master
I am not trying to be rude here, but this person has a LGD....NOT a dog, they are looking for advice from LGD OWNERS...experienced LGD owners.....
It's a world of diffrence training a LGD vs a dog..., soooo, telling them to get rid of him is not helping their situation at all and is extremely discouraging for anybody doing this without prior experience , ...let's be supportive of this endeavor and hold back advice unless you've "walked in those shoes"
It's a world of diffrence training a LGD vs a dog..., soooo, telling them to get rid of him is not helping their situation at all and is extremely discouraging for anybody doing this without prior experience , ...let's be supportive of this endeavor and hold back advice unless you've "walked in those shoes"
frustratedearthmother
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Amen, Sistah!! 
microchick
Chillin' with the herd
Off and on today I've been 'scanning' over this thread with the plan to sit down and read it in earnest later.
Amazing is all I can say and I'm hoping that I can glean out some tips for personal use.
A year ago this past April my husband and I rescued 5-3 month old Australian Cattle Dogs/Red Heelers from a local Amish puppy mill. They were being fed a dead goat kid and dead rabbit and had no socialization at all. They were little heathens but darling and after some dealing with the owner, we loaded them all in our van and brought them home for the grand sum of 25$. We had wanted one or two pups as we had lost our much loved Blue Heeler 4 months earlier to Degenerative Myelopathy. 5 weren't in the plan but we suspected the next stop for these darling pups was a visit to the nearest ravine and a date with Mr. .22.
It has been a difficult yet rewarding journey with these 5 young dogs. We have cats. They hate cats. Well not so much hate as look at them as food and or play toys probably because of their contact with the rabbit which may or may not have been alive when it was tossed to them.
We finally conceded that for the cats and our sake (we usually wound up wounded with ever close encounter of the cat kind along with the cats) One of them in the house with a leash and collar and they weren't too bad but 5 of them and it was 'GAME ON!'
Things are better since they have their part of the house (utility room and family/hobby room) and the cats have their section but the training goes on. They have a large fenced in back yard to run and play in along with their own mini pond to swim in. They are intelligent, eager to pleas and loving dogs but some day we would like to be able to have them in the main house without them going after the cats and the two house dogs joining the fray.
Realistically we know that what it will take is less than 5 cats and 7 dogs to manage in order to make any progress. Two of our cats are old and our house dogs will be 8 next year.
I'm hoping to be able to take the ACDs out of the yard and on walks shortly to resume their training. I have been using a martingale collar on them for indoor lessons but these are tough dogs even though the heavies is probably close to 40 pounds and the smallest 30-35 pounds. They laugh at training collars. I have a pronged collar coming from Amazon. I've used them before in training a BIG GSD and am hoping that after a few training sessions with it I will be able to go back to using a slip collar for walks.
I can really relate to OPs situation and to how she feels when she says 'I'm tired'. I have unleashed my red headed genes on these 5 on occasion and can safely say that 'I can relate'.
We made the mistake of expecting them to be like our first Blue Heeler. Dingo was sweet, funny, loved cats and although he had a mind of his own he was a joy to have around. These 3 boys and 2 girls are one big challenge and probably more like the typical ACD.
Thanks again for the excellent thread.
Amazing is all I can say and I'm hoping that I can glean out some tips for personal use.
A year ago this past April my husband and I rescued 5-3 month old Australian Cattle Dogs/Red Heelers from a local Amish puppy mill. They were being fed a dead goat kid and dead rabbit and had no socialization at all. They were little heathens but darling and after some dealing with the owner, we loaded them all in our van and brought them home for the grand sum of 25$. We had wanted one or two pups as we had lost our much loved Blue Heeler 4 months earlier to Degenerative Myelopathy. 5 weren't in the plan but we suspected the next stop for these darling pups was a visit to the nearest ravine and a date with Mr. .22.
It has been a difficult yet rewarding journey with these 5 young dogs. We have cats. They hate cats. Well not so much hate as look at them as food and or play toys probably because of their contact with the rabbit which may or may not have been alive when it was tossed to them.
We finally conceded that for the cats and our sake (we usually wound up wounded with ever close encounter of the cat kind along with the cats) One of them in the house with a leash and collar and they weren't too bad but 5 of them and it was 'GAME ON!'
Things are better since they have their part of the house (utility room and family/hobby room) and the cats have their section but the training goes on. They have a large fenced in back yard to run and play in along with their own mini pond to swim in. They are intelligent, eager to pleas and loving dogs but some day we would like to be able to have them in the main house without them going after the cats and the two house dogs joining the fray.
Realistically we know that what it will take is less than 5 cats and 7 dogs to manage in order to make any progress. Two of our cats are old and our house dogs will be 8 next year.
I'm hoping to be able to take the ACDs out of the yard and on walks shortly to resume their training. I have been using a martingale collar on them for indoor lessons but these are tough dogs even though the heavies is probably close to 40 pounds and the smallest 30-35 pounds. They laugh at training collars. I have a pronged collar coming from Amazon. I've used them before in training a BIG GSD and am hoping that after a few training sessions with it I will be able to go back to using a slip collar for walks.
I can really relate to OPs situation and to how she feels when she says 'I'm tired'. I have unleashed my red headed genes on these 5 on occasion and can safely say that 'I can relate'.
We made the mistake of expecting them to be like our first Blue Heeler. Dingo was sweet, funny, loved cats and although he had a mind of his own he was a joy to have around. These 3 boys and 2 girls are one big challenge and probably more like the typical ACD.
Thanks again for the excellent thread.
Ridgetop
Herd Master
Back again. Sorry for my abrupt departure.
That was going to be the next thing I wrote. Never chase a puppy when it won't come - it become s a game. Also never call your puppy to you and then punish him. That teaches him that coming when called will be unpleasant. When magnum slipped the leash, turn the other way and run away calling his name excitedly. He will start chasing you since that is where the fun seems to be. Then he will come up and you can step on the leash or catch him.
Absolutely. I say you can't obedience train an LGD because the type of obedience training we all know is the dog heeling nicely and doing an auto sit when you stop. This isn't going t happen with an LGD. (Although I know one Anatolian who is a pet and his owner has been working on obedience for 18 months and seems to have a trained dog. I wouldn't take him off leash and expect that kind of obedience but for an Anatolian he does well.) Unless as you said further on when they are protecting you from suspected danger. My big male will walk carefully and slowly by my side as I come up from the barn particularly if I am a trifle unsteady on my knees. Maybe because I tend to lean in him for balance then. LOL
They can certainly be taught respect and manners. My friend Erick refers to the dogs as being polite in their behavior. This is basic training for any dog and particularly giant dogs.
frustratedearthmother's experience with her dogs backing her up is definitely something that occurs. But she did not train them to do this, It is part if their LGD instincts.
Just because you have been doing what you term the "wrong things" doesn't mean that you can't correct them. It sounds like you are beating yourself up too much over the training thing. Magnum is still a baby. He will adjust his behavior many times as he learns to be a good LGD.
I need to ask, when you talk about the goat pasture it sounds like it is far from your house. Is it actually that far away? Or does the gate open out of your fenced yard? Do you have a fenced yard around your house? Does he escape from the pasture to come up to the house? If you do, you can allow Magnum to have the run of the house yard. If you keep him in the house yard, does he escape from the house yard as well?
Magnum is a Pyrenees/Maremma cross. The Pyrenees part may be to blame for his escapes and wandering. If he is the type of Pyr that wanders there is little to be done. There can be several causes of wandering on the part of Pyrs. Some Pyrenees bloodlines are far ranging. This type of Pyr was bred for centuries to accompany shepherds as they wandered with their flocks in the mountains These Pyrenees had to stay out ahead of and around the flock at a distance to drive predators off before the sheep arrived. We had several of these type over the years. Keeping this type of Pyr inside fencing can be almost impossible. Other Pyrenees bloodlines may not be as far ranging and will stay closer to the flock. None of ours ever stayed with the flock constantly. Instead they set a perimeter at what they considered a safe distance from the sheep. This was not our property line. Instead they wanted more open protected space between the sheep and any possible predators. Having the sheep pen inside the fenced property line seemed to make it better, but even that did not keep our Pyrs from leaving our property. The type of fencing that you have may need work to keep him in.
He may be bored. Magnum is a puppy and a high energy dog. 8 weeks was too early for the breeder to sell him. Since he and his littermates were in a separate pen in the goat pasture he had no chance to interact with them under his mother's guidance. He has no playmates or older dogs to interact with. Do not think that adding a puppy buddy will help. It will just double your problems. Since the goats do not like him, can you find someone with a couple wethers that are used to LGDs? If you can borrow or buy a couple of these, that might help. It will also let him know that not all goats are mean. And the goats that are afraid of him will be calmed when they see these others interacting with him in a loving manner. Do Not buy something from the livestock auction if you have a good healthy herd. Livestock auctions are where people often unload sick or diseased animals. You have enough problems.
Definitely continue training with the knee in the sternum anti jumping training. Continue with the sit for dinner training. Work on the "wait" or "back off" commands. "Back off" is taught by walking into him and blocking his every move to get around you. Just keep doing this and he will learn to give ground and back up. This is a good command that can be used if he is going after another dog or infringing on a mama's comfort zone with her kid. You only need to do this training when you are out with him for a few minutes each time. Extended training is not really necessary for these things since he will learn these things fast. Walking on the leash. As long as he is willing to walk on the leash without hanging back, or lunging forward, that is all I worry about. My LGDs stay at home with the livestock, they din;t go for walks around the neighborhood. I teach them not to exit the driveway gate when it is open too. It is usually closed but when we drive in or out they are taught not to go past it. My Anatolians learned this, my Pyrs never did unless I stood there in the gateway driving them back.
Let's talk about fencing for him. You need a high fence because Pyrs can scale 6' fences even though they may not jump them. Pyrs are determined diggers if they want out. You will have to address the fence bottom to avoid that. Where he digs out, coyotes can come in. Pyrs can actually compress their bodies like cats and slide through minuscule openings. I don;t know how they do it, but I have seen them do it.
If you have a woven wire 5' fence, he will be able to jump it. Try using a hot wire above the fence top. You will have to train him to a hot wire so he knows that it will burn or zap him when he touches it. Digging can be addressed in the same way. Use standoffs on the fence and run the hot wire along the bottom of the woven wire about 8" abot the ground. Baymule used this effectively on Trip when he was learning to stay on property. She can tell you how to do it.
We took lengths of chain link and attached them to the bottom of our fences where we had problems with diggers. We draped the chain links onto the ground and when the brush grew up through the wire it it was impenetrable. Our fences were 5' high and we did not have any trouble with our Anatolians at first. When we bought another puppy and were walking the fence line with her to teach her the territory, we noticed on the steep downhill slope in the front pasture that the ground had sloughed off into the fence effectively lowering the height to 3'. Oops. Our large Anatolians could almost step over it We bought heavy T type posts and used hose clams to attach them to our oil pipe vertical posts. Then we put another 4' of wire on top of our fences. The lower wire is woven wire, we saved money on the top by using welded wire since there would be no pressure on that portion to pop the welds. Our perimeter fencing is now 7'-8' tall.
I am a Nervous Nelly and hate to have my dogs roam. It drove me crazy (and gave me ulcers) the whole time we had Pyrs. After vour last Pyr died of cancer we tried to keep the sheep safe by locking them up at dusk, but after a year we started losing ewes during the day. We switched to Anatolians since they tend to remain with the flock rather than guard a perimeter. We have one 6' section of fence that I am worried about that still has to be fortified and when this heat breaks we will take care of it. It is in the baby pen and the ewes and lambs are out on the big field now. It was overlooked somehow, but DS1 and I will take care of it. The dogs can access that pen so predators are not my worry. I just like heavy fortifications for our Anatolians since we live in litigious southern California where criminals sue householders if they are injured during a break in! Of course, if someone came over the fence and the dogs got him it would be a case of SSS! LOL Or a case of BSS.
That means Bite, Shovel, Shut Up of course.
Anyway, calm down and do some reading about LGDs and their instinctual methods. Remember that just like a child, magnum has to be taught his job. An older GLD would have taught him but since you don't have one he will have to learn little by little.
By the way, did you call the breeder about your problems? Good breeders should give you training back up. Either way, don't get discouraged. Keep asking questions. We are here.
That was going to be the next thing I wrote. Never chase a puppy when it won't come - it become s a game. Also never call your puppy to you and then punish him. That teaches him that coming when called will be unpleasant. When magnum slipped the leash, turn the other way and run away calling his name excitedly. He will start chasing you since that is where the fun seems to be. Then he will come up and you can step on the leash or catch him.
Absolutely. I say you can't obedience train an LGD because the type of obedience training we all know is the dog heeling nicely and doing an auto sit when you stop. This isn't going t happen with an LGD. (Although I know one Anatolian who is a pet and his owner has been working on obedience for 18 months and seems to have a trained dog. I wouldn't take him off leash and expect that kind of obedience but for an Anatolian he does well.) Unless as you said further on when they are protecting you from suspected danger. My big male will walk carefully and slowly by my side as I come up from the barn particularly if I am a trifle unsteady on my knees. Maybe because I tend to lean in him for balance then. LOL
They can certainly be taught respect and manners. My friend Erick refers to the dogs as being polite in their behavior. This is basic training for any dog and particularly giant dogs.
frustratedearthmother's experience with her dogs backing her up is definitely something that occurs. But she did not train them to do this, It is part if their LGD instincts.
Just because you have been doing what you term the "wrong things" doesn't mean that you can't correct them. It sounds like you are beating yourself up too much over the training thing. Magnum is still a baby. He will adjust his behavior many times as he learns to be a good LGD.
I need to ask, when you talk about the goat pasture it sounds like it is far from your house. Is it actually that far away? Or does the gate open out of your fenced yard? Do you have a fenced yard around your house? Does he escape from the pasture to come up to the house? If you do, you can allow Magnum to have the run of the house yard. If you keep him in the house yard, does he escape from the house yard as well?
Magnum is a Pyrenees/Maremma cross. The Pyrenees part may be to blame for his escapes and wandering. If he is the type of Pyr that wanders there is little to be done. There can be several causes of wandering on the part of Pyrs. Some Pyrenees bloodlines are far ranging. This type of Pyr was bred for centuries to accompany shepherds as they wandered with their flocks in the mountains These Pyrenees had to stay out ahead of and around the flock at a distance to drive predators off before the sheep arrived. We had several of these type over the years. Keeping this type of Pyr inside fencing can be almost impossible. Other Pyrenees bloodlines may not be as far ranging and will stay closer to the flock. None of ours ever stayed with the flock constantly. Instead they set a perimeter at what they considered a safe distance from the sheep. This was not our property line. Instead they wanted more open protected space between the sheep and any possible predators. Having the sheep pen inside the fenced property line seemed to make it better, but even that did not keep our Pyrs from leaving our property. The type of fencing that you have may need work to keep him in.
He may be bored. Magnum is a puppy and a high energy dog. 8 weeks was too early for the breeder to sell him. Since he and his littermates were in a separate pen in the goat pasture he had no chance to interact with them under his mother's guidance. He has no playmates or older dogs to interact with. Do not think that adding a puppy buddy will help. It will just double your problems. Since the goats do not like him, can you find someone with a couple wethers that are used to LGDs? If you can borrow or buy a couple of these, that might help. It will also let him know that not all goats are mean. And the goats that are afraid of him will be calmed when they see these others interacting with him in a loving manner. Do Not buy something from the livestock auction if you have a good healthy herd. Livestock auctions are where people often unload sick or diseased animals. You have enough problems.
Definitely continue training with the knee in the sternum anti jumping training. Continue with the sit for dinner training. Work on the "wait" or "back off" commands. "Back off" is taught by walking into him and blocking his every move to get around you. Just keep doing this and he will learn to give ground and back up. This is a good command that can be used if he is going after another dog or infringing on a mama's comfort zone with her kid. You only need to do this training when you are out with him for a few minutes each time. Extended training is not really necessary for these things since he will learn these things fast. Walking on the leash. As long as he is willing to walk on the leash without hanging back, or lunging forward, that is all I worry about. My LGDs stay at home with the livestock, they din;t go for walks around the neighborhood. I teach them not to exit the driveway gate when it is open too. It is usually closed but when we drive in or out they are taught not to go past it. My Anatolians learned this, my Pyrs never did unless I stood there in the gateway driving them back.
Let's talk about fencing for him. You need a high fence because Pyrs can scale 6' fences even though they may not jump them. Pyrs are determined diggers if they want out. You will have to address the fence bottom to avoid that. Where he digs out, coyotes can come in. Pyrs can actually compress their bodies like cats and slide through minuscule openings. I don;t know how they do it, but I have seen them do it.
If you have a woven wire 5' fence, he will be able to jump it. Try using a hot wire above the fence top. You will have to train him to a hot wire so he knows that it will burn or zap him when he touches it. Digging can be addressed in the same way. Use standoffs on the fence and run the hot wire along the bottom of the woven wire about 8" abot the ground. Baymule used this effectively on Trip when he was learning to stay on property. She can tell you how to do it.
We took lengths of chain link and attached them to the bottom of our fences where we had problems with diggers. We draped the chain links onto the ground and when the brush grew up through the wire it it was impenetrable. Our fences were 5' high and we did not have any trouble with our Anatolians at first. When we bought another puppy and were walking the fence line with her to teach her the territory, we noticed on the steep downhill slope in the front pasture that the ground had sloughed off into the fence effectively lowering the height to 3'. Oops. Our large Anatolians could almost step over it We bought heavy T type posts and used hose clams to attach them to our oil pipe vertical posts. Then we put another 4' of wire on top of our fences. The lower wire is woven wire, we saved money on the top by using welded wire since there would be no pressure on that portion to pop the welds. Our perimeter fencing is now 7'-8' tall.
I am a Nervous Nelly and hate to have my dogs roam. It drove me crazy (and gave me ulcers) the whole time we had Pyrs. After vour last Pyr died of cancer we tried to keep the sheep safe by locking them up at dusk, but after a year we started losing ewes during the day. We switched to Anatolians since they tend to remain with the flock rather than guard a perimeter. We have one 6' section of fence that I am worried about that still has to be fortified and when this heat breaks we will take care of it. It is in the baby pen and the ewes and lambs are out on the big field now. It was overlooked somehow, but DS1 and I will take care of it. The dogs can access that pen so predators are not my worry. I just like heavy fortifications for our Anatolians since we live in litigious southern California where criminals sue householders if they are injured during a break in! Of course, if someone came over the fence and the dogs got him it would be a case of SSS! LOL Or a case of BSS.
That means Bite, Shovel, Shut Up of course.Anyway, calm down and do some reading about LGDs and their instinctual methods. Remember that just like a child, magnum has to be taught his job. An older GLD would have taught him but since you don't have one he will have to learn little by little.
By the way, did you call the breeder about your problems? Good breeders should give you training back up. Either way, don't get discouraged. Keep asking questions. We are here.
