Moving with an LGD

[Elle]

OK, a 7 month old lgd can not be considered a finished lgd. They are in the teenybopper stages through at least 2 years of age for the males, at least 18 months for females, with variations in any direction, lol. So best is to have a secure paddock with electric fence wires offset at the top, middle (dog's eyelevel) and just above grass height bottom to discourage digging out. Then have a secure kennel with a top, bottom and sides. Kennel mesh fencing is not secure, by the way. It's easily unwoven by hogs or dogs! Reinforce with goat panel as needed. Put him in the paddock under supervision after you walk the perimeter. Do this each time you put him out and use a long line if you need one. Put him back in the kennel when you cant supervise. Hopefully you can leave him out longer and longer. Repeat after moving to the new place. It may take two weeks to two months to achieve you goal and you may have to recondition him if he gets stupid and leaves his brains under his pillow someday before he matures. Lgd's that have been messed up by taking inside the house and yard instead of kept near/insight of their livestock are more likely to forget their training and their brains. You may also be bald by the time he's 3 years old and finished...if all goes smoothly you'll retain all your hair and wonder what I was talking about! lol

Raising Maremma now since 2oo6 owned one or more since 2001

 

[Baymule]

We got Paris (our female) when we still lived in town at our old house. Paris was in the back yard with the chicken coop. She was in a small place.

We moved to 8 acres. We fenced a back yard for Paris. So far, so good. Trying to put her in a larger area was a failure, she loved her back yard! So picture your typical small, in town back yard and that's what we have. After many failed attempts to introduce her to the sheep, I had to put it on the back burner until I figured out what to do.

In a corner of the yard, we used cow panels and wire to build a small pen and put a small shelter (on skids) in it. We weaned several lambs in it. This put them on Paris's ground. She inadvertently became their protector since she protected her yard. It was very small, the lamb got free feed hay, were fed pellets twice a day and there was deep grass in the back yard. The grass had driven my husband nuts, wanting to cut it, but I had plans for that grass! LOL

This is the pen, the shelter and the lambs.

After a couple of weeks, we let the lambs out with Paris while we sat in the yard to supervise. She wore a leash and we let it drag.

With time and patience, she accepted the lambs as hers and eventually she accepted the sheep as hers too.

This is what worked for me and my dog. She was/is location bound, she felt safe in her small yard. We ran a temporary fence from the back yard up to the front pasture and when all the gates are open, she can run all the way to the front fence, where she loves to bark at trucks. I am slowly transitioning her out of the back yard, LOL. Since I couldn't take her to the sheep, I brought the sheep to her.

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/paris-has-begun-lamb-training.33844/

 

[Elle]

This works when you aren't worried about escape and roaming. Once that starts, they are hard to break...thus my suggestion for the hot wire to keep the dog wary of fences. I want to add that hip dysplasia is really not so much a genetic breeding flaw as a result of not keeping the dog in a large enough area that allows for them to move freely and stretch out. I've only seen it in dogs kept for more than a year as a youngster in tight quarters such as kennel runs. Your back yard was great, and a great way to transition her to livestock bonding. I suggested the kennel run for that purpose only, with the goal for it to be used for only two weeks to two months as the young male grew and bonded with their flock and clan. Many of the east coast states are passing legislation that will outlaw the use of lgd's. I recently learned that New Jersey has a law that prohibits the dog being outside in kennel, shed or barn or even pastures for more than 15-20 minutes at a time. No way an lgd can be any kind of predator control method with that insane legislation in place. So just keep your heads up and make sure you are in very nearly constant contact with your legislators or you will find similar laws passed in your state. That's how it starts, insanity state by state. I have spoken with legislators that tell me that's how they create legislation. By basically copying legislation that successfully passed in other states, ...usually California! The job of a farmer is similar to a CEO of a major corporation with one person doing most of the work!

 

[newbiekat]

@Elle Thank you very much for your help!

I know he is far from a mature adult, and still needs a lot of work!

So the 1/4 acre is a good size pen as long as there is hot wire got it. Now what about penning him up while we are at work? What size pen for that? We have a 4x6 cage that we usually use to transport the goats in the back of the pick up. He wouldn't be able to break out of that... But is that too small to stay in during the day?

Also, do you think it would confuse him to walk the perimeter of this place just to move to a new place and do it all over again in a few weeks?

 

[Elle]

A cage is ok once or twice but it's too small for him to be kept in longer term. His bones won't grow right. This is a huge problem for our larger to giant dogs, and adds to the health issues caused by the toxins in commercial dog food kibble and vaccines and other medical procedures some of which are legislated death. (I have lost many to that rabies shot, in20016 alone I lost six mature working lgds in the 24 hours to 2 months subsequent to that death needle. Many others are losing dogs or they have noticed their dogs' health has been destroyed. Research is out there to prove it, and I can direct you to read it for yourself. As far as confusion,...he needs to learn to follow your lead according to your needs the needs of your operation. To survive in today's environment the farm operation needs to remain flexible to some extent. He needs to learn to become your partner.

Oh, and we specialize in providing finished or nearly finished working Maremma lgd's to newbies and others with little time or skills to get a puppy from 12 week old infant/toddler/teenybopper to 30 months finished. I've begun to get calls from people who say they have been told that my lgd's are turnkey predator control. I guess it seems that way when the client actually follows directions! lol Plus the older nearly adult pup is more settled...less room for error and has been conditioned to move from one paddock to another and from pasture to feedlot situation per the seasonal change /need.

I have moved whole packs of dogs back and forth across the country. No confusion. I've moved single individuals ...I once sold a finished male to some folks that lied to me about their situation, I guess I should have gone to the courthouse and checked deeds! Anyway, the female he was to support was not fixed and came into heat, drawing in pitts and all manner of dogs which he kept away from her, she had only his puppies! The pittie died, my male barely lived to heal from his jugular injury and was subsequently abandoned. I went back down there, 6 hours drive, and parked outside the gate and whistled my whistle for my quarterhorse mare. He came running out and jumped in my truck and we went home. I took a pack and a small goat herd and poultry flock over 1,000 miles and moved the into no fences on a 1,100 acre ranch situated surrounded by conservation lands. No straying. They stayed with the flock, stalled at night, and stayed on the right side of the country road and the river. I didn't even walk THAT whole perimeter with them! When we arrived I was barely able to walk at all due to injuries from a rear end collision with my truck a couple of months prior to the trek. When spring arrived we packed up the pack, less the 5 that had been brought along to deliver to new owners along the way, and we arrived back where they had been born and they settled right back in. So not every experience is going to go that way but I started out there and waited for folks to get themselves organized ...for two weeks, and was there for 6 months. Just focus on developing your partner in predator control. These dogs think and are smarter than border collies. Spend some time outside there with them daily, short periods of time multiple times a day during the work week, longer hours on weekends. Transition from kennel to yard to pasture. Careful use of tethers to help with this transition can be useful if your state has not already outlawed their use. I don't know how many have done so but as of last fall, New Jersey and Pennsylvania went nuts.

 

[Baymule]

That IS insane. Can't leave your dog outside longer than 20 minutes? What a bunch of idiots. @Elle I have experience with just my two GP's, nowhere near your knowledge and experience. I appreciate your input here. But I have a question......you joined in 2014 -- where have you been? I'm glad that you are here now and joining in the conversations.

 

[newbiekat]

Wow! Thank you for all of that info!

Sadly, I was supposed to pick up the pup last night, however, the owners told me that they hadn't seen him all day, and that was the longest he has been gone. I asked her to keep me posted if she saw him again, and she never did. So I think the neighbors have him for good... He is not on the property anymore.

All of this was great information to learn, and I plan to continue to learn as time goes on. Hopefully we will get a LGD (or two ) when the time is right.

Thank you again for all your help and support.

Oh, and I agree with Baymule, where has this wealth of knowledge been since 2014??? Your input (at least in my case) has been very beneficial! Thank you again!!

Baymule- I am very thankful for your help too!

 

[Baymule]

There are others here that are a whole lot smarter than me about LGD's. I just posted what worked for me, if that helped you, I am glad about that.

 

[newbiekat]

So, I hate to revisit this post, but I just learned that the pup was recently taken to the local shelter. So now, instead of getting the dog with the house, I will need to adopt him out of the shelter If I still want him. He is a very people friendly dog, has basic training commands down, and loves belly rubs- this is what I was told from a friend (not related to the situation at all) who got the inside scoop on how the dog made it to the shelter. So... is he too attached to humans at this point? Or would it still be worth it to adopt him out of the shelter and try to get him socialized with my goats?

From what I understand, after the people sold their cattle the dog started roaming the neighborhood. Someone didn't like the 'stray' dog in her nice neighborhood, so after the second or third day straight that he was wandering close to her place, my friend believes she called local pd to take the dog to the shelter to "get it out of her sight".

 

[Mike CHS]

@Southern by choice is probably the best reference for this one. Dogs that roam the neighborhood around our area don't survive very long since everyone has livestock.