Need help choosing a breed

[Stubbornhillfarm]

A little off topic, but tagging in on one of your last comments. Intimidation. I have learned in a very short time that you must know, remember and teach your bovine that "You" are the boss. The moment you let that intimidation set in, is the moment they realize it. They are pretty smart creatures! Big, little, easy going, onery. Any one you get, just teach it from day one to respect you. It is amazing how a person of any size can get a 1000 pound animal to move without mistreating them once you have established who is the boss and who is not. I learned this from the fine folks on this forum among other very valuable things. Can wait to see what breed you choose!

 

[WildRoseBeef]

Thanks for all the input. I will consider them all and see what breeds are available around here.

Do you think a Dexter would do well in our kind of environment? I like that they are smaller and thus have a lesser environmental impact.

How do you explain that? Like as far as manure output is concerned and feed efficiency or what? Dexters are good if you are looking for a family milk cow, but I don't know how they will fit into your type of environment. From my limited point of view, you may find yourself supplementing more with a Dexter than with a Longhorn. (And there are folks who raise Longhorns up here in Alberta that are out in the snow and cold (shelter is only some trees and a few sheds), so don't go thinking they're not tough enough to withstand winters in Arizona.)

If you want some information on cow size in relation to feed efficiency, I would suggest checking out the link below about it. Just because a particular bovine is small doesn't necessarily mean that it will "have a lesser environmental impact."

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=14875

Thanks for that link! WildRoseBeef, I really love how willing this board is to sharing information with newbies. I've noticed there are a few posters that always share their experience as well as facts in the myriad of threads I've been reading lately. What a great bunch of people!

What I meant by environmental impact is broken up into a few factors. With less body mass, the cow would compact soil much less than a heavier cow. With a smaller size, a bit less land would be needed (debatable, depending on feed efficiency), and there would be less ecosystem disruption as a whole. Where we live, desertification is a big problem, as many people have overgrazed the area and now we are loosing topsoil. In addition, cow steps kill sprouting native flora (pines, scrub, etc.) and make it more difficult for seedlings to live past germination due to soil compaction (so they sprout but can't develop a well-suited root system). Cows are not native to this area, as you know, and so they cause a horde of issues at the ecological level. They eat things that pronghorn, deer, or elk would eat and change the biodiversity by only allowing those flora species that can withstand their "abuse" flourish and take over the landscape. If, let's say, a smaller cow would be less efficient (meaning take more resources to be in good shape?), then it would defeat the purpose, like you said. It makes me wonder how much supplementation with hay would be worth it if one has a less efficient cow. I guess it comes down to what the owner is willing to put up with. But one of your comments on the thread you directed me to really resonates with me, and that is intimidation. I would surely fall into that category and would feel more comfortable with a smaller animal as opposed to one that towers over me. I've never owned a cow and really value the input shared in this board. Most days I'm in a lab working at the scope or writing papers, so the "been there done that" advice that is given here is priceless to an inexperienced hopeful.

The part of environmental impact that you mention as far as sustainability and conservation is concerned can be controlled by the one being that also needs the land to live on: you. You have the power to make sure that the particular area that you are raising your animals on is not going to be overgrazed or not going to negatively affect wildlife habitat in any way. That being said, there are ranchers up north that have to raise their cattle on habitat that is or has been used by bison, elk, pronghorn, deer, etc., and their practices are such that it enhances the environment, not degrades it. Things like timing when cattle are grazed so that it not only interferes with the elks' movements but also makes available forbs and grasses that they need to survive is one practice that they work at. I remember my Rangeland Management instructor telling me and other classmates about how a particular area that was prohibited from cattle grazing that was originally elk habitat actually discouraged elk from grazing in that area. When cattle where put in there to remove or eat the vegetation that the elk would not touch, the elk came back to that area.

As far as soil compaction is concerned, this is actually a good thing. Soil compaction or hoof action actually encourages grass growth, in addition to grazing pressure and manure deposited in that area. It is true that there is a fine line between too little and too much compaction, and I believe you are leaning towards the concern of too much compaction, but it's all about how you manage your pastures. Graze your pastures according to what is growing in there and what your stocking rate is for your area. You need to be extra careful about grazing if you have native grasses growing in your area, because some species may be decreasers (grasses that decrease in population if grazed during the growth period) which will indeed affect the integrity of the habitat you are trying to care for. Cow size does have a little affect on compaction, but only as far as how much forage it takes, as far as pasture growth is concerned (NOT supplemental feed like hay), to feed that size of cow. I would be much more concerned about compaction if cows are set to graze on a newly-seeded pasture where the roots haven't had at least a year of no grazing to establish themselves. I would also be concerned about pugging during the spring and in ground that hasn't seen much hoof traffic, and all of a sudden gets a lot of hoof traffic over a long (not short) period of time. This pugging is what destroys a pasture, if and only if you have poor grazing management.

Now, that leads me to yet another page I want you to read that I wrote out from a Forages book I read and studied in my Forages course in University. You can see this page here:
http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=236-grazing-methods This page applies to ALL areas where cattle can be grazed, and that does include your area as well.

I have to agree with SHL about the intimidation thing: you can only be intimidated by a bovine if you don't know how to establish dominance with it. This doesn't have to be with a cow, it can also be with bulls, steers, heifers and even calves. Size is a big factor, but frame of mind and misunderstanding of bovine behaviour can also be ingredients that will make you feel intimidated and even fearful of ANY SIZE of bovine. People can be intimidated if there's a bovine that is acting "aggressive" even though it's really being a rough-housing little trouble-maker. If you know how to get an animal to get out of your space or chase them off even when they're acting all goosey on you, then you'll have no problem dealing with pretty well any size bovine. Trust me, I've had to deal with a number of 1000 lb goofy steers that I had no trouble roaring at and chasing away just to let them know I meant business. Heck I even nearly had a 900 lb pet steer put his hooves on my shoulders before I managed to get away in time without getting hurt. Not to mention the stories I have with the bulls we get in our steer herds....

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your post, but it's all information that you obviously love to learn to get your own animals.

 

[Cricket]

I wonder if you contacted your county extension agency? They usually have a good handle on what's going on locally. Here in VT anyway, they're really supportive of homesteaders.

I'd think it would be easier to learn handling if you started with a calf. I tend to get sloppy about safety myself with my own calves. I go thru this progression every year with calves of just plain not paying attention, to 'oh, he's just playing', to 'oh, he's just playing, but that could have hurt', to smartening up and giving them an undercut to the jaw the minute they come at me with their heads down. It seems as though it would be harder to deal with a cow that you don't know how much force you're going to need. At the farm I work at, we sometimes get cows in from auctions that have either been electric prodded to the point they're mindless with fear, or beaten to the point where a whack with a twitch means nothing to them. The calves we raise can be quite the twerps, but they're happy twerps you can deal with. (Mostly Jersey's--Queen of Twerpdom!)

(I still can't believe there's a place like this where you can talk cows all you want and don't get the 'glazed look'! I've seen some people here are talking about running their own fecals--anyone I've ever mentioned that to looks at me like I'm from Mars! I'm happy and thank you all.)

 

[NorthernAZ]

I love this place so much already!
That link had a plethora of information, thanks! It is targeted at herds, and we are looking to get 1 single calf. As I was reading it, I was trying to imagine how all that information could be extrapolated to fit our (hopefully) future situation. Gave me a lot of ideas I hadn't considered before.

Totally off-topic, but wanted to ask...does anyone have any preferred designs for single or double stable/stall? We'd like to build one from scratch, and seeing how much information there is about grazing, etc., I wonder if there is that much information for small scale stable design and construction (what has worked best in your experience, from laying down floor, wall and roof materials, heat (is it good/bad/not necessary?), dimensions, etc. I'm hoping to get a list of links to read through.

We haven't decided on breed yet, but we know we are definitely going to get a calf. How old is too old for imprinting? I would not take a calf that hasn't had colostrum, so how many days is it adequate to leave the calf with the cow and still be able to imprint? We are looking forward to spending some nights "camping" in the stall with the new addition (we are going to be those crazy cow people already...oh dear). I've been spending a lot of time in this forum.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

Your welcome.

I can't help you with the stall thing, as I am more focused on the raising of beef cattle not dairy. However, as far as the best age to get a calf, in my honest opinion the older the better. If you are getting an animal for the purpose of getting milk from it, why not instead get an experienced cow instead of a calf? With a calf it will take you at least 2 years, if not more, until you can actually get some milk from her because you have to feed her to the right age and weight, which may take at least a year if you get her when she's a few months old, then find a bull to breed her, and then wait another 9 months or so until she has a calf. If you get an experienced cow, though, you will get milk without having to wait a long time, and she is experienced with calving already too, unlike first-calvers are. Also, unlike with cows, you have to train a heifer to accept the milking process, and this can be a pain in the rear for inexperienced folks like yourself. This can also be a pain if the cow you get isn't experienced being milked either, so you have to be careful what you choose.

If you're getting a calf, get two to keep each other company. And you don't have to sleep in the barn with them every night the first couple nights, especially if you end up deciding on a cow. Letting them get used to their surroundings on their own terms without you having to baby them through it (which might actually make it worse...) is better. Besides, you would hardly sleep if you got a couple of calves that had just been weaned and were bawling all the time for their mommas! Been there done that, we had 80 calves just bought that would be bawling all day and night for their mothers the first few days they come to their new home, and I certainly wouldn't want to be sleeping out near where they were!

 

[77Herford]

Your welcome.

I can't help you with the stall thing, as I am more focused on the raising of beef cattle not dairy. However, as far as the best age to get a calf, in my honest opinion the older the better. If you are getting an animal for the purpose of getting milk from it, why not instead get an experienced cow instead of a calf? With a calf it will take you at least 2 years, if not more, until you can actually get some milk from her because you have to feed her to the right age and weight, which may take at least a year if you get her when she's a few months old, then find a bull to breed her, and then wait another 9 months or so until she has a calf. If you get an experienced cow, though, you will get milk without having to wait a long time, and she is experienced with calving already too, unlike first-calvers are. Also, unlike with cows, you have to train a heifer to accept the milking process, and this can be a pain in the rear for inexperienced folks like yourself. This can also be a pain if the cow you get isn't experienced being milked either, so you have to be careful what you choose.

If you're getting a calf, get two to keep each other company. And you don't have to sleep in the barn with them every night the first couple nights, especially if you end up deciding on a cow. Letting them get used to their surroundings on their own terms without you having to baby them through it (which might actually make it worse...) is better. Besides, you would hardly sleep if you got a couple of calves that had just been weaned and were bawling all the time for their mommas! Been there done that, we had 80 calves just bought that would be bawling all day and night for their mothers the first few days they come to their new home, and I certainly wouldn't want to be sleeping out near where they were!

I agree with Rose. I went with an experienced Dairy cow for my first Dairy cow. The cow had the patience to deal with me the inexperienced milker, lol. Now for the stall situation, whats going in the stall?