New to goats, have a question about worms

[vstoltzfus]

Hi,

I came over from Backyard Chickens when my daughter got goats. My dd is 10, and has been saving her pet sitting money for years in order to buy the fence, shed, and goats she's been wanting. She got 2 boer/nubian crosses on April 20 from a nearby farmer. He told her he used pour-on wormer on April 19 (we could still see the purple on their backs) and that she shouldn't have to worm them again until fall. Fast forward to last week when one of her goats started acting sluggish and wasn't eating as well as she had been. Then on Saturday morning I went into the goat yard to help her clean it out, and I saw a mass of worms mixed with some poop. We immediately went to the feed store to buy some dewormer, and ended up getting Safeguard pellets. After reading the label, we decided to give her one cup per day for 3 days and to take away her hay, making this her only food source, along with the grass/weeds that grow in her yard. The problem is she's not eating the pellets. She's getting really thin along her spine (I'm guessing a 1.5 to a 2 on the body condition scale) yet her belly is really big. Her gums are light pink. Try as I could, I couldn't get a glimpse at her eyelid. I'm obviously going to have to buy a different wormer, but I need your opinion as to which ones are the easiest to administer. I've never given a shot to an animal, and prefer one I can give orally. I did read the other posts on worming goats, and they were helpful, but what I really need is a down and dirty opinion on what is effective, yet easy to administer. Also, I'm a little worried about the goat. That mass of worms I saw through me for a loop because not only was it gross, but I'm assuming it's an indication that she's got a severe case of worms. So any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Melissa

 

[WhiteMountainsRanch]

I use Ivomec plus, it's an easy Sub-q shot under the skin. You need to do it two to three times 10 days apart.


It pinked up my goats lids right away.


I would also suggest Valbazen by mouth, same repeat schedule.


Best thing would be to get a vet to do a fecal so you know what kind of worms you are battling.

 

[lunaflora]

The worms that you can actually see are tapeworms. Safeguard will, in theory, kill tapeworms, but there is widespread resistance to this wormer, and it is almost impossible to administer the pellets correctly if your goat is picky at all (or has less appetite because it isn't feeling well). A much more effective wormer is Valbazen. It is given orally at a rate of 1 ml per 10 lbs. Give it once every 10 days for a total of three times (so over 30 days). Valbazen also kills the much more problematic microscopic worms that you can't see, such as barperpole worm. It is a very good, very effective, broad spectrum wormer and it is given orally. Ivermectin is also a good wormer in general, but it will not kill tapeworms so you definitely need Valbazen. Thin with a big belly is a sign of worms, so I think it is almost certain you have more than just tapeworms. Worms in goats are not like in dogs or cats -- they are more than a nuisance and can kill goats quickly.

I would never use a pour-on wormer on a goat. Maybe it's easy, but they are made for the tough skins of cattle and can cause severe problems on more delicate goat skin. I have never used one myself, but heard very bad stories about it.

While you are at the feed store to get the Valbazen ($40-ish), also buy some Red Cell ($10-ish) and Probios ($7-ish). Give 5 mls or so of Probios every day to support the rumen. This is just livestock probiotics. Give 15 ml of Red Cell the first day, than 5ml every other day for two weeks. This is for anemia caused by the worm load. To give any oral medication to a goat you'll need to buy a drenching/feeding syringe like this one: http://fiascofarm.com/goats/oral_drenching.htm. Tractor Supply sells one that is yellow for about $14. Here are some pictures showing how to give oral medicines/supplements to goats -- http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.267211689979167.73115.167086699991667&type=3.

GIVE THE HAY BACK. Goats should always have access to clean, horse quality hay, fed off the ground. Even if they have browse to eat. You will not inspire the goat to eat those pellets by taking away the hay, you will just cause other secondary problems. I understand why this would seem like the right thing to do to get the wormer into the goat, especially if you don't have a lot of ruminant experience, but it is very important that you give the hay back.

As far as body condition, is this a male or female goat? What are you currently feeding? I'm happy to help you figure out how to get some weight back on him/her, depending on what you're currently feeding.

Also, I know this is not what you want to hear, but if you are going to continue to have goats, you are going to have to learn how to give a shot. I never gave a shot before I had goats, and now I do it all the time and I've taught several people and it's really not as hard as it seems. Because of the way their metabolism works, injections are much more effective in general. But, lucky for you right now, most of the wormers work best when given orally.

Good luck!

 

[elevan]

I'm going to give you a few links to read and quote some info from them for you.

Whenever you bring new goats home you stress their system and that sets them up for a worm bloom. So when you bring a new goat home you need to have a quarantine procedure which includes deworming. More info here: http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-basic-health

*Quarantine Drench to help avoid introducing drug resistant worms
--isolate animals to barn, dry lot or a sacrifice pasture not used for other sheep
--use more than one dewormer class, one of which should be cydectin and the other
probably leamisole (Prohibit)
--manure sample worm egg counts should be negative prior to turnout with other animals
do sample 2-3 weeks after deworming
--release from quarantine onto YOUR INFECTED pastures
you want the animal to pick up your non selected worms

In addition please research internal parasites and the procedures to deal with them. Deworming on a schedule is a bad idea because it can and does lead to drug resistant worms. What that means is that you're essentially breeding worms who will be immune to your dewormers and extremely difficult to fight off.
Info on Internal Parasite Management: http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt
You'll find a link to a slideshow in the parasite management article that will tell you about FAMACHA scoring and Body Condition scoring.

Coccidia is also a concern for any goat age 3 weeks to 2 years.
Info on Coccidia: http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-coccidia-goat


IMHO pelleted dewormers are a complete waste of money. Drenching (oral administration) is not difficult at all and the only time we give injections is for lice / mites.

Here's some info on what our farm keeps on hand and what dosages that we use: http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-goat-med-chest
You should check with with your vet on dosages as the level of resistant in your area will affect the dosage that you use. Our dosages listed are what we use on our farm based on the needs of our goats based on the resistant level of our worms.

And I agree with lunaflora - give back the hay. Your goat needs it for their system to function properly.

If you can see worms in the feces then you have tapeworms - you need a white dewormer (Safeguard or Valbazen) - give it 3 days in a row. Don't rely on the Safeguard pellets though, go get the suspension or even a paste if you have to. Another point I agree on is that if you've got tapes, you've likely got other worms too.


eta: Welcome to BYH!

 

[vstoltzfus]

Thank you so much for all of your help! I am so encouraged.

Lunaflora, Malli is a female, about 4 months old. My dd is feeding her hay, and some corn as a treat (which they love). We also give her vegetable scraps.They also have pasture, although right now they're confined to their goat yard. That's all she's feeding them.

We will give her back her hay immediately, and go to the feed store tomorrow for the Valbazen and other supplements that were suggested.

Please let me know if there is other counsel for us. I truly appreciate it.

Melissa

 

[lunaflora]

You're welcome! So many kind strangers on the internet have helped me and my goats over the years, it's the least I can do to pass it along a bit!

I recommend that you (and your dd) spend a lot of time on this page -- http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm. It is a wonderful, easy to read crash-course on goats. Lots and lots of useful information. Also, this site also has a lot of in depth information, though from a slightly different perspective -- http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/articlesMain.html. You'll find there are some on-going disagreements in the goat world, and these two sites present two different sides of several of these issues from two very experienced goat keepers. I use both pages but lean toward the Fias Co Farm approach myself. She has dairy goats and tries to manage them holistically as much as possible. I'm also a member of several other internet groups related to goats...I think we are not supposed to advertise other groups on here, but if you message me privately I can send you some more resources.

As far as feeding goats, everyone does it a little differently, but I do give my growing kids grain and I like the way they grow and their general health better than when I didn't. They don't get a lot, but something to supplement them, especially if they are thin (though dealing with the worms should help with that). Fias Co Farm has an entire page dedicated to feeding -- http://fiascofarm.com/goats/feeding.htm. She recommends up to a pound (3 cups) a day for kids under a year old, and that's about what I do. I also offer alfalfa pellets free choice to everybody (I only keep does right now) and I really like what that does for the health of my herd as well. It is a good source of calories (for a thin doe), protein, and calcium. All things a growing body needs!

Also, do you have baking soda and loose goat minerals out free choice in a place off the ground where they won't get wet? Those two things are very cheap insurance against many of the things that can go wrong with goats. I wouldn't be without them.

Best of luck to you and your daughter in this new adventure!

 

[lunaflora]

Oh, and Emily -- I am interested in hearing more about giving Valbazen three days in a row for tapes. I hadn't heard of that that before and had always just given it every 10 days for a total of three doses. And I guess I'd never had tapes before so it wasn't really an issue, but I recently bought two does that had tapes and treated them in my standard way. I haven't seen any more tapes since the first treatment, but I know that doesn't tell me anything for sure. What is the benefit of giving three days in a row? Do you have any reference for that or is it just your own experience? Their third dose is coming up soon so I could, in theory, do that last one as a three-day dose.

Thanks!

 

[elevan]

Giving Valbazen 3 days in a row was recommended to us by a breeder a while back when we were dealing with tapes. A follow up fecal showed them clear of tapes, so this is what we've done since if we have a goat with them. It works for us.

On the topic of feeding goats, be sure to check out the Goat Feeding Discussion (link is in my signature below) to see the wide range of feeding methods that our members here use. There are 3 things that are an absolute must for feeding goats - Water, Long stemmy feedstuff (hay / good quality browse) and minerals (loose is best imo).

 

[Bunny-kids]

This may be too late to be of help, but I just wanted to say ... my vet sells wormers in any amount needed. Rather than buying a big bottle of Valbazen, I bought the amount I wanted for about $14. I wormed at 2-3x the strength recommended by the vet, and that was enough to worm 3 does, 4 kids, my wether, and I still have a good bit left over. Since it's your daughter's goats, and she saved money so long to buy them, I thought that might be helpful.

Since I don't worm on a schedule, I can save a lot of money not storing up wormers, just buying what I need. My vet charges about $4 - $7 for most wormers that will treat at least several goats for at least one cycle (sometimes a lot more).

And for levamisole, I did buy Prohibit powder because it was very cheap -- for a few bucks I'll have levamisole for YEARS probably. Much cheaper than the regular Levamisole capsules they used to sell (that I don't think you can buy anymore). You have to be careful dosing levamisole, as it can be dangerous if overdosed. It's one of the best wormers for barberpole, with I think Cydectin the next best? But I know levamisole is good in most places.

Valbazen works here for tapes. It's a weak wormer against barberpole. But it's a good idea to give a weaker wormer first if your goats have LOTS of barberpole and are seriously anemic. Reason being, if you kill off too many of the barberpole at once, they have been attached inside the goat's stomach and when they die and let go, it can leave too many bleeding holes and cause too much blood loss to an already anemic goat. I would rather do Valbazen first in that case, let the goat get a bit stronger, then come back later with Levamisole.

Anyone feel free to correct me on anything. I don't do a lot of chemical wormers, but this is working for me.

I hope your daughter is not discouraged. I must say, goats have a lot of ups and downs and she'll find herself (and you!) learning a LOT along the way.

 

[elevan]

Good tip. I buy Valbazen and Albon from my vet as well in just the quantity that I want instead of huge bottles for huge $$.