Baymule
Herd Master
@farmerjan we have a new member that seems to be considering cattle or goats. Could read his post and give your advice?
New to the Forum! How's my set up look?
- Thread starter Concrete_Cowboy
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- barn cows electric fence fencing horses
SageHill
Herd Master
Since you mentioned border collies I’ll add in here that they can be great cow dogs as well. I know many that are. 
so you may not need a horse especially if you don’t want the upkeep of one.
so you may not need a horse especially if you don’t want the upkeep of one.- Joined
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WELCOME TO BYH ..... Have read through your posts and congrats on wanting to be more self sufficient, raise your own food etc and so on.
Horses are superfluous for as small an acreage that you are talking... if you do not already have a horse and like to ride... NIX that idea... Costly and not going to get used for what you want to do. If you have a 4 wheeler, UTV of some sort... that will do much more good in the long run. Plus, don't need to feed it when not in use...
I LIKE HORSES..... but they are a costly hobby if they are not on a big acreage and worked daily.... you do not have the land or the animals to warrant one. If you get down the road and really want to have some to ride for PLEASURE... that's another story.
I am a cow person..... BUT.... even with better climate/conditions for grazing down there than here in the western/mountainous part of VA.... you will need 1-2 acres per animal...
NOW, not saying it is not doable there... My suggestion is seriously think about the sheep or goats... I am NOT a goat person at all.... but there is the milking ability of some breeds and the meat ability of other breeds.... so if you like that idea... that is the way to go. I do NOT know how they would work with dogs working them... especially if they are dairy/milking goats.
Sheep would work... and you can rotational graze sheep and cattle... or goats and cattle... or sheep and goats... My first thing would be to decide where you want fences and get perimeter fences up... YES, use sheep and goat fence woven wire with 4" vertical stays.... it will go a long way to containing sheep and goats better than "field fencing" which is 6" vertical stays... The da#@ goats and sheep like to put their heads through it because .... well.... just because... it is ALWAYS BETTER TO EAT what is on the other side of the fence....and if they have horns... they WILL get stuck...
I am not so keen on letting animals have the run of the barn so much as they ought to have a 3 sided shelter in their field where they will be during the colder winter time... and I do not know how much "winter" you get. A barn is great... and needed for some hay storage and such... and no matter how much grazing you have... you NEED hay for a backup... kinda like money in the bank... a CUSHION.... for droughts, or extreme wet when they need to be "dry lotted" out of the wet soupy conditions... yes, having a barn with some stalls where animals can be contained is a great thing... but for daily stuff, do you really want them in where you have to clean it out all the time????
I would have a couple of the "portable" type shelters that you can pull with a truck...on skids.... or SUV or something.. so not keep them on the same ground all the time... healthier for their feet and parasite problems etc... even if you only move them a couple times a year... it will spread out the manure deposits...
I like beef, and raising a couple for your own use is very doable... get 2 if you are going to go with a few cattle... they like their own "kind" for company... raise 1 to eat, one to sell... from baby calf to kill is 20-28 months on average... to get a good enough finish on them unless you grain heavily. Another chapter if you want beef. You can rotate their pastures... run cattle BEFORE wooled breeds of sheep... cattle do NOT like to eat where there is lanolin from wooled sheep...
Unless you want to shear sheep... hair breeds are better... there are several... you can research them on the internet.. Katahdins and Dorpers are the more "meaty ones... Katahdins also have some nice udders and could possibly be dual purpose for milk also.
I definitely would do as @SageHill suggested... RUN power to the barn... for any/all possibilities of things... and I would use electric netting to subdivide any pastures so that you can get a feel for what works for the animals... Permanent fence is just not something you want to invest in until you get a feel for how you want the "flow" of animals... vehicles in and out of the barn area...it is just too darn hard to change it...
Our barns have gated access to them for both animals and for machinery... tractors moving hay and such... but we don't want the animals in the barns all the time except for the designated sections... and that requires getting cleaned out regularly to prevent things like hoof rot and such... and just health in general... we use wood chips from tree trimmers to put down. In our inside barn area that the cattle have access to the feed bunks and such.... the floors are concrete... to make scraping out easier... no muddy sections, no "digging down the floor level" over time of cleaning out... I am not a huge fan of concrete but it has it's place...
So my advice is to do any permanent fencing .... on the property line OR... 15-20 ft from the line and have a completely cleared "drive" around the property on the line... but that is losing grazing space. PLUS.... you have to think down the road... you need to have it on the property line or someone is going to buy next to you and next thing they will be keeping the land cleared out... 2 ft over on your land... and eminent domain will take over after a certain number of years and next thing they will own part of your property.... seen it happen....
I would put the perimeter fence on the line... have a cleared 15-20 ft drive area around the inside of the fence so that you can get to it for repairs etc... and as you decide where you want a cross fence... and want to make it permanent... put a gate in the cleared "drive area" to go from one place to another without having to come out to a gate somewhere at the end of the field...
Also PUT in 16 ft gates... big enough to get a vehicle through... the first time you have a down animal in the back corner and cannot drive your truck there you will be wishing you had done it different. If you prefer... use 2 / 8 ft gates..... but make it big enough for access by a vehicle/tractor/haying equipment...It is easier to put in a bigger gate than to have to REDO the fence because the gate is too "tight" a space to get through........
Some shade trees will not hurt them and offer protection from sun and even the wind... I am not all this "fence them out of the woods" stuff...
Having water at the barn will be important... and you do not want them to only have the pond for water... you want water at the barn for animals that have to get locked in for treatment if hurt or a ewe that needs to be kept in with her lambs... or a whatever..... it is a PITA to carry water for very far. Fresh water out of a spigot will be drunk more readily by animals than out of a pond...even if it is the pond water run to the barn...
One other thing... you are going to have to think about predators... that far from the house... coyotes will kill a sheep and/or run them to death.... you may want to consider an LGD... or we use donkeys and some llamas as guardian animals... cattle will have alot less problems than sheep or goats...a donkey that will not bother baby lambs/kids is worthwhile.... a female/jenny or a female llama... but llama's have to be shorn...
We have the da#@ed Black Mexican Buzzards that will prey on livestock... they will kill newborn lambs and calves and such... you can do some research on them... but they are NOT just eating dead stuff... they are birds of PREY....unlike the "Turkey Buzzards" the ones with the "naked red neck"... that eat 99% dead carrion... that is where a shed type thing and some trees comes in handy in a pasture... a little protection but they will land and then go in under cover.... BUT.... the black ones do NOT like to go in a thicker wooded area where they cannot take off in flight easily. So it gives livestock some protection more than out in the open. The buzzards do not tend to bother the larger adults but will go after fresh afterbirth and the newly born in any breed...
Horses are superfluous for as small an acreage that you are talking... if you do not already have a horse and like to ride... NIX that idea... Costly and not going to get used for what you want to do. If you have a 4 wheeler, UTV of some sort... that will do much more good in the long run. Plus, don't need to feed it when not in use...
I LIKE HORSES..... but they are a costly hobby if they are not on a big acreage and worked daily.... you do not have the land or the animals to warrant one. If you get down the road and really want to have some to ride for PLEASURE... that's another story.
I am a cow person..... BUT.... even with better climate/conditions for grazing down there than here in the western/mountainous part of VA.... you will need 1-2 acres per animal...
NOW, not saying it is not doable there... My suggestion is seriously think about the sheep or goats... I am NOT a goat person at all.... but there is the milking ability of some breeds and the meat ability of other breeds.... so if you like that idea... that is the way to go. I do NOT know how they would work with dogs working them... especially if they are dairy/milking goats.
Sheep would work... and you can rotational graze sheep and cattle... or goats and cattle... or sheep and goats... My first thing would be to decide where you want fences and get perimeter fences up... YES, use sheep and goat fence woven wire with 4" vertical stays.... it will go a long way to containing sheep and goats better than "field fencing" which is 6" vertical stays... The da#@ goats and sheep like to put their heads through it because .... well.... just because... it is ALWAYS BETTER TO EAT what is on the other side of the fence....and if they have horns... they WILL get stuck...
I am not so keen on letting animals have the run of the barn so much as they ought to have a 3 sided shelter in their field where they will be during the colder winter time... and I do not know how much "winter" you get. A barn is great... and needed for some hay storage and such... and no matter how much grazing you have... you NEED hay for a backup... kinda like money in the bank... a CUSHION.... for droughts, or extreme wet when they need to be "dry lotted" out of the wet soupy conditions... yes, having a barn with some stalls where animals can be contained is a great thing... but for daily stuff, do you really want them in where you have to clean it out all the time????
I would have a couple of the "portable" type shelters that you can pull with a truck...on skids.... or SUV or something.. so not keep them on the same ground all the time... healthier for their feet and parasite problems etc... even if you only move them a couple times a year... it will spread out the manure deposits...
I like beef, and raising a couple for your own use is very doable... get 2 if you are going to go with a few cattle... they like their own "kind" for company... raise 1 to eat, one to sell... from baby calf to kill is 20-28 months on average... to get a good enough finish on them unless you grain heavily. Another chapter if you want beef. You can rotate their pastures... run cattle BEFORE wooled breeds of sheep... cattle do NOT like to eat where there is lanolin from wooled sheep...
Unless you want to shear sheep... hair breeds are better... there are several... you can research them on the internet.. Katahdins and Dorpers are the more "meaty ones... Katahdins also have some nice udders and could possibly be dual purpose for milk also.
I definitely would do as @SageHill suggested... RUN power to the barn... for any/all possibilities of things... and I would use electric netting to subdivide any pastures so that you can get a feel for what works for the animals... Permanent fence is just not something you want to invest in until you get a feel for how you want the "flow" of animals... vehicles in and out of the barn area...it is just too darn hard to change it...
Our barns have gated access to them for both animals and for machinery... tractors moving hay and such... but we don't want the animals in the barns all the time except for the designated sections... and that requires getting cleaned out regularly to prevent things like hoof rot and such... and just health in general... we use wood chips from tree trimmers to put down. In our inside barn area that the cattle have access to the feed bunks and such.... the floors are concrete... to make scraping out easier... no muddy sections, no "digging down the floor level" over time of cleaning out... I am not a huge fan of concrete but it has it's place...
So my advice is to do any permanent fencing .... on the property line OR... 15-20 ft from the line and have a completely cleared "drive" around the property on the line... but that is losing grazing space. PLUS.... you have to think down the road... you need to have it on the property line or someone is going to buy next to you and next thing they will be keeping the land cleared out... 2 ft over on your land... and eminent domain will take over after a certain number of years and next thing they will own part of your property.... seen it happen....
I would put the perimeter fence on the line... have a cleared 15-20 ft drive area around the inside of the fence so that you can get to it for repairs etc... and as you decide where you want a cross fence... and want to make it permanent... put a gate in the cleared "drive area" to go from one place to another without having to come out to a gate somewhere at the end of the field...
Also PUT in 16 ft gates... big enough to get a vehicle through... the first time you have a down animal in the back corner and cannot drive your truck there you will be wishing you had done it different. If you prefer... use 2 / 8 ft gates..... but make it big enough for access by a vehicle/tractor/haying equipment...It is easier to put in a bigger gate than to have to REDO the fence because the gate is too "tight" a space to get through........
Some shade trees will not hurt them and offer protection from sun and even the wind... I am not all this "fence them out of the woods" stuff...
Having water at the barn will be important... and you do not want them to only have the pond for water... you want water at the barn for animals that have to get locked in for treatment if hurt or a ewe that needs to be kept in with her lambs... or a whatever..... it is a PITA to carry water for very far. Fresh water out of a spigot will be drunk more readily by animals than out of a pond...even if it is the pond water run to the barn...
One other thing... you are going to have to think about predators... that far from the house... coyotes will kill a sheep and/or run them to death.... you may want to consider an LGD... or we use donkeys and some llamas as guardian animals... cattle will have alot less problems than sheep or goats...a donkey that will not bother baby lambs/kids is worthwhile.... a female/jenny or a female llama... but llama's have to be shorn...
We have the da#@ed Black Mexican Buzzards that will prey on livestock... they will kill newborn lambs and calves and such... you can do some research on them... but they are NOT just eating dead stuff... they are birds of PREY....unlike the "Turkey Buzzards" the ones with the "naked red neck"... that eat 99% dead carrion... that is where a shed type thing and some trees comes in handy in a pasture... a little protection but they will land and then go in under cover.... BUT.... the black ones do NOT like to go in a thicker wooded area where they cannot take off in flight easily. So it gives livestock some protection more than out in the open. The buzzards do not tend to bother the larger adults but will go after fresh afterbirth and the newly born in any breed...
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SageHill
Herd Master
Yup definitely water and power to the barn as @farmerjan said. She also said constant access to the barn is not a good idea. I’ll second that. When I started out - and before I found this great group - I let my sheep have constant access to the barn. Of course they ended up spending a LOT of time in the barn. Which, meant a lot more clean up. Their stalls are 12x12 and 12x24 and rubber matted, so I use pine shavings. That’s a lot of bags when the have daytime access. They no longer have daytime access and the shavings bill and cleaning time is a lot less.
Baymule
Herd Master
Words of wisdom from @farmerjan .
Finnie
Herd Master
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X2 about the horses. UNLESS it’s been your lifelong dream to have some. If so, then start out just taking lessons and learning to ride. That will give you an idea of whether you want to take it further.
You obviously already have land and pole barn where you could house your own horses. But in our case, with only 4 acres, it was a better decision for us to board our daughter’s horse rather than pay a mortgage on a barn being built. That way she was spending her time with other horse people instead of before and after school slogging through the chores all by herself.
But if you start out with lessons at a stable somewhere, you will learn about horse care and you will see how their setup works for them. It will give you a lot of insight on how to manage your own horses if you eventually decide to get any. DEFINITELY learn to ride first, at the very least!
Oh, and welcome to the forum! Very nice group of people here. I hope you stick around.
