Nigi doeling with diarrhea *Update*

[cyanne]

Great, looks like I'll be getting up at the crack of dawn (or a little before) tomorrow. The trick will be doing all of the chores really quick, then trying to hit the vet's office in that slim window after they open but before I have to leave for work.

I really wish I had a job that was more flexible so I could take care of emergencies like this. It's even worse right now because the poor economy has led to layoffs so we are all extra nervous about our jobs.

 

[cyanne]

When mine (3 adults, so far) were scouring, the vet tech who ran fecals from them mentioned seeing what she thought were "a few" coccidia cysts and tried to jump to that conclusion.. It's a long story, but I told the vet that they were adults and had been on grain medicated with deccox..

"Not very much, though." I said, referring to the amount of grain they get.

"Well, it doesn't take much..." he said, just before basically throwing out coccidiosis based on that alone and getting me several syringes of Naxcel to combat what we then agreed was most likely a bacterial gut infection.

The thing is, had I not taken the fecals in...which forced me to physically walk in the door of the vet's office...I wouldn't have gotten the Naxcel so quickly. One of ours didn't make it, but the other did..

When another came down with the same thing about a week later, Scour-Halt stopped the scours well enough to allow us to keep up hydration with electrolyte drenches, which gave us time for Naxcel to go to work clearing the infection. She recovered, but it was touch and go for a while.

When you go to your vet with the fecal, tell them what's going on. Even if the fecal only serves to rule out coccidiosis, you'll be right there for them to give you a strong Rx antibiotic..


At this point, has the scour become truly watery and/or foul smelling, or is it basically the same but thinner? Is it mucousy?

Also, has this doeling had a C/D-T vaccination? If so, when? If not, when was her dam vaccinated? If the dam wasn't vaccinated in late gestation (2-3wks pre-kidding) and if the doeling's not been vaccinated, or if the doeling was vaccinated too early for her own system to produce antibodies to the vaccine, or too recently to have developed immunity, then I'd consider hitting her with some C&D Anti-toxin.. Reason being, if the above scenario is the case, this could be early enterotoxemia.

The scour looks thinner than it was, but I didn't see her go to the bathroom, she didn't go when I was in the pen with her. All I could see was that is was all over her rear and down her back legs. It does smell pretty bad, but then I don't have a reference for that sort of thing since it smells like poo which always smells bad to me.

I am not sure if it is bloody, I thought I saw a little bit near her tail, but I wouldn't say I was 100% sure since it was a mess back there. Not enough blood that it looked obvious, anyway.

I am going to head in to my vet in the morning to do the fecal test and see if she can give me anything stronger than the scour tablets I have now (those are just terramycin).

When I get home I plan to dose her with some pepto, and maybe drench her with some water and electrolytes as well.

 

[ksalvagno]

If you feed a medicated feed, don't the goats have to eat the specified amount of feed to get the proper amount of meds? If they don't, would this lead to parasites being resistant to the medicated feed?

I'm just asking because this is becoming a big deal here with alpacas. The vets in my area are getting worried that all this routine worming is going to create a resistant parasite in Ohio like they have in the south. So far we are ok but that can change easily. The vet I was talking to also said that goats are worse than alpacas with parasites becoming resistant to wormers.

 

[cmjust0]

The scour looks thinner than it was, but I didn't see her go to the bathroom, she didn't go when I was in the pen with her. All I could see was that is was all over her rear and down her back legs. It does smell pretty bad, but then I don't have a reference for that sort of thing since it smells like poo which always smells bad to me.

Whatever ours had caused their scours to smell just a bit like a parvo dog... Not nearly as strong as parvo, but the smell was similar.. Personally, I think the distinctive parvo smell is primarily the smell of poop mixed with body fluids and mucous and blood, and isn't specific to the organism..

That's speculation, though...

I am not sure if it is bloody, I thought I saw a little bit near her tail, but I wouldn't say I was 100% sure since it was a mess back there. Not enough blood that it looked obvious, anyway.

Still...to me, if there's any blood at all, I'd be using a fairly stout injectable antibiotic. Reason being, if there's blood mixing with poop then there could be poop mixing with blood, which puts them at risk for septicemia..

If this is a bacterial scour, the scour medication might work against the organism directly in the gut, but since there's obviously gut irritation, there's a good chance she's not really absorbing much of it into her bloodstream, which wouldn't really help with septicemia.

Plus...it's just tetracycline. If it's watery and mucousy with any blood at all, I'd be bringing out the big gun injectables like Naxcel or Baytril or something along those lines.

I am going to head in to my vet in the morning to do the fecal test and see if she can give me anything stronger than the scour tablets I have now (those are just terramycin).

When I get home I plan to dose her with some pepto, and maybe drench her with some water and electrolytes as well.

Ask your vet about some banamine or ketofen, too.. I know that banamine is supposed to work well on scours in kids as it soothes the gut lining, but I'm not sure about ketofen.. They're both strong NSAIDS, but they're not the same med..

If ketofen will soothe the gut, I'd consider using that if the vet has it. It's not nearly as harsh on the liver and kidneys as banamine. If it doubt, though, hit her with a little banamine.

Once you rule out coccidiosis, b-complex shots might be of value here, too.. If she has coccidiosis, though, skip those...thiamine sorta like 'coccidia fuel.'

 

[cyanne]

Okay, here is the latest update:

Rain seems to have completely turned around since I checked her this morning before work. This morning her whole hiney was covered in poo and it was really runny. I gave her a dose of the scour tabs (terremycin) crushed up and mixed with milk via a drench syringe.

When I checked her tonight her rear end was mostly clean and there does not look like there is any new poo back there at all. Before she had a constantly wet rear, now the only thing left is the dry stuff left over from before. I also saw some tiny pellets in her pen that were fresh and were the right size to be hers. The doe she shares a pen with is 8 months old so her pellets are much bigger.

I had picked up some scour-halt on my way home so I gave her a dose of that (2ml, since it said 1 ml per 10lbs) just in case. So, the question is, if her runs have really stopped, should I continue giving the antibiotic for the full time like you usually do? That's the usual protocol, but I had never used this one before so I want to be sure.

Also, should I still make the run to the vet in the morning for the fecal exam? In addition to how tough it would be to get up there in back and not be late to work, I don't want to stress her out by dragging her up there if it really isn't necessary. If it were cocci, though, would it have responded so quickly (or at all) to the antibiotics?

I called the vet while I was at work. She said I could bring the goat in for the fecal sample and if it was a parasite thing she would give me something for that but if it isn't then she won't give me any antibiotics without doing a full exam ($45 by the way just to visually inspect her, any tests are extra).

So, would it be worth the expense and hassle, or should I maybe wait a day or so to see if her poo stays normal and then decide?

 

[ksalvagno]

If she has not really shown signs of being ill other than the diarrhea, you could probably wait and see. Since none of us are there looking at the goat, it is really hard to say. I would do the antibiotics for the full course. Another option instead of taking the goat in to the vet is to just take a fecal sample and drop it off.

Can you make your final decision in the morning? See how she is and decide then? I would also continue with the probiotic.

Hopefully she is on the road to recovery.

 

[cyanne]

Yeah, I think I am going to get up early and check on her tomorrow morning and decide then. She seems pretty perky and took her evening bottle pretty enthusiastically. No lethargy and she did not seem dehydrated.

I drenched her with some water mixed with electrolytes (about 30cc) and there are two buckets of water in their pen, one with electrolytes and one with plain water in case she does not want to drink the other one due to the taste.

I talked to the vet about bringing in a sample instead of taking the goat, but I don't have a way to get a sample other than standing around waiting and hoping for her to poo so I can get some of it.

I don't have a fecal loop thingy and I don't know of any other way to get the size of sample that the vet said she needed. Any tips on this would be appreciated, in case I do have to take a fecal sample to my vet.

 

[cmjust0]

I had picked up some scour-halt on my way home so I gave her a dose of that (2ml, since it said 1 ml per 10lbs) just in case. So, the question is, if her runs have really stopped, should I continue giving the antibiotic for the full time like you usually do? That's the usual protocol, but I had never used this one before so I want to be sure.

Scour-Halt isn't 1ml/10lbs....it says 1ml twice daily if the baby pig is under 10lbs, and 2ml twice daily if it's over 10lbs..

As I mentioned earlier, some folks say you can totally stop peristalsis with Scour-Halt if you're not careful, and I know first hand that two doses of 3cc's, 12hrs apart, will constipate a 130lb+ doe for a few days immediately following a profuse, watery, mucousy, blood-tinged scour. That's also why I said that if you decided to use it, use it sparingly.

If your doeling no longer has a foul, watery, mucousy, and possibly bloody scour that's liable to lead her to dehydration, shock, and possibly death, I would not give more Scour-Halt.. Basically, you use Scour-Halt until the scours halt -- no more.

Get some Probios in her..

 

[cyanne]

I had picked up some scour-halt on my way home so I gave her a dose of that (2ml, since it said 1 ml per 10lbs) just in case. So, the question is, if her runs have really stopped, should I continue giving the antibiotic for the full time like you usually do? That's the usual protocol, but I had never used this one before so I want to be sure.

Scour-Halt isn't 1ml/10lbs....it says 1ml twice daily if the baby pig is under 10lbs, and 2ml twice daily if it's over 10lbs..

As I mentioned earlier, some folks say you can totally stop peristalsis with Scour-Halt if you're not careful, and I know first hand that two doses of 3cc's, 12hrs apart, will constipate a 130lb+ doe for a few days immediately following a profuse, watery, mucousy, blood-tinged scour. That's also why I said that if you decided to use it, use it sparingly.

If your doeling no longer has a foul, watery, mucousy, and possibly bloody scour that's liable to lead her to dehydration, shock, and possibly death, I would not give more Scour-Halt.. Basically, you use Scour-Halt until the scours halt -- no more.

Get some Probios in her..

Yes, it actually says 1ml twice daily for a 10lb piglet. It did not give instructions for over 10 lbs...even though the box said it was for piglets up to 15 lbs? Weird. Anyway, I estimated that she weighs well over 20lbs but I did not want to overdo it so I went with 2mls.

Do you think that would be too much? Should I maybe drop the dose down to 1.5 ml?

As far as stopping the dose, wouldn't that be bad also? My understanding with pretty much all antibiotics is that it is very important to do the full course of Tx or you risk creating resistant bugs. The box says to continue for 3 to 5 days, I guess I could just do the shortest treatment course and just go for 3 days if that is safest. Will be calling the vet later today to see what she thinks, I guess.

Already on top of the probiotics. I have had her on them since the scours started and I put some of the powder into her milk this morning. Will probably alternate with a dose of the paste to make sure she gets enough.
Thanks!

 

[cmjust0]

Yes, it actually says 1ml twice daily for a 10lb piglet. It did not give instructions for over 10 lbs...even though the box said it was for piglets up to 15 lbs? Weird. Anyway, I estimated that she weighs well over 20lbs but I did not want to overdo it so I went with 2mls.

Do you think that would be too much? Should I maybe drop the dose down to 1.5 ml?

As far as stopping the dose, wouldn't that be bad also? My understanding with pretty much all antibiotics is that it is very important to do the full course of Tx or you risk creating resistant bugs. The box says to continue for 3 to 5 days, I guess I could just do the shortest treatment course and just go for 3 days if that is safest. Will be calling the vet later today to see what she thinks, I guess.

If she's no longer scouring, drop it to zero.. That's how Scour-Halt is administered in goats, based on everything I've read, everything I've heard, and my own personal experience with it. You give up to 3ml to adults every 12hrs until the scours stop. When they stop, you stop.

Let me be very, very clear about this:

I ADVISE STRONGLY THAT YOU DO NOT GIVE THIS DOELING ANY MORE SCOUR-HALT.

What I'm trying desperately to convey here is that Scour-Halt is serious stuff. It's not a "just in case" medication; it's a "Holy sh*t, if we don't get this stopped RIGHT NOW this animal is going to die" medication.

As such, it's really good to have on hand if you've got an animal that's scouring so badly that it's at risk of dehydration, shock, and death...BUT...to reiterate, there are reports of Scour-Halt stopping peristalsis in goats! The guy who turned me on to Scour-Halt warned me himself of that very thing, saying "Be careful, though. You can turn'em the other way with that stuff. I've done it."

And, please, understand this...a goat with no peristalsis is a dead goat.

Dead.

As for what the box says -- forget what the box says.

The box is meant for people treating baby pigs, and you're treating a goat. We're WAY off label here. Pigs aren't even ruminants, so it's a total apples to oranges comparison.

Had you posted that she didn't appear to have scoured in a while and that there were pellets in her stall after a round of terramycin, and had you asked if you should still give the Scour-Halt "just in case," I frankly would have said NO WAY. A perky animal with dried poo on its butt doesn't strike me as a particular risk for dehydration, shock, and subsequent death, therefore it doesn't meet my criteria for using Scour-Halt.

Already on top of the probiotics. I have had her on them since the scours started and I put some of the powder into her milk this morning. Will probably alternate with a dose of the paste to make sure she gets enough.
Thanks!

Good.. Keep probiotics in her, and for the love of all things holy...please...I'm begging you, do NOT give this doeling more Scour-Halt.

If you're worried about a lingering bacterial gut infection, get a round of injectible antibiotics in her.