Obedience Training...

[Robbin]

Obedience training.

Due to Tolis size, Ive been taking him to Obedience training. Anatolians are known to be very stubborn, and making their own decisions and responding as they deem appropriate. Toli has always been well behaved, never even barked at other dogs or people in the classes. He does seem stressed and often lies down. However he jumps at the chance to greet and play with other people and dogs. The trainer adores him, but she says hes the most complicated dog shes ever seen. When and why he responds isnt predictable. One day he does everything asked, next day, not a chance. All Im really interested in is a no kidding around recall when hes called. I want to stop him from chasing a deer off our property and then to a road, or stop him from hurting a stray or a stranger, thou he has never been overly aggressive. I really just want the insurance policy of being able to call him EVERY time. So far his demeanor has been perfect. Barks at strangers, and strange cars, but never overtly aggressive. Not tail wagging mind you, but not teeth bared and growling. He is noticeable more aggressive at night, which is fine by me. He also knows when a large group is on the farm, they can come and go and he pays no attention.

I think a large part of the problem is the leash. He doesnt ever have one on. Hes on a leash going to the vet and going to class. The leash restriction is unsettling to him. Hes use to going and coming as he pleases.

Anyway, does anybody else have a rock solid recall or do you all get that you gotta be kidding me look every now and then?

I'm going to keep trying, a solid recall is a good insurance policy againest a lot of very BAD outcomes.

 

[Southern by choice]

Robbin- Your Toli is wonderful! I love the pics and too see how he is growing so beautifully. They are amazing dogs!
The nature of the problem lies with your expectations. LOL
The Livestock Guardian Breeds are wired for their independence. One of the recommendations I give to many that I consult for is that the new LGD owner must understand these dogs as "there own species". Although I also give basic obedience to all my LGD's and encourage others to do so the strict obedience that one could require from non- LGD breeds should not be expected from a true WORKING LGD. This is called "over-training" and over-training or attempting strict obedience demands not only stresses the dog but goes against its natural instinct.

I certainly understand the last part of your statement...

Anyway, does anybody else have a rock solid recall or do you all get that you gotta be kidding me look every now and then?

I'm going to keep trying, a solid recall is a good insurance policy againest a lot of very BAD outcomes.

Because these dogs are so unbelievably intelligent and they have been bred for many many years to think for themselves and decide for themselves it can be difficult for those that are not accustomed to LGD breeds to understand this is a positive trait. Most people are use to the pet world and the complete domestication of the dog, the true working LGD should have some manners, and basics of sit, stay (although that is subjective- it should never be expected for any LGD to remain iin a long stay position) come- there again this command if over-used without genuine merit will end up with the working dog completely ignoring you in the end.

All 4 of our LGD's will come immediately on command however we never overuse it, and ONLY in the right situation. If any of our dogs perceive a threat or something wrong they will defy a come command to do their job. No, this is not always convenient. Our farm mutt and GSD both can be in full run chasing a rabbit possum whatever and if given command to stop or return, they will stop on a dime and return. The nature is completely different.

I share this with you as you are obviously a very diligent and thoughtful LGD owner that takes the responsibility of owning a LGD very seriously. I want you to know a) it is nothing you are doing wrong b) nothing the dog is doing wrong. The trainer more than likely has no experience with this breed and that is why it is perplexing.

I also think it is awesome that you continue to socialize Toli and that you have such a bond... very clearly can anyone see how much you love him. It is funny ... can you remember what life was like before? There really is something so incredible, so amazing, so clearly different , these dogs will change your life.

Working with them and owning them are very different... I will never be without my LGD's if I can help it!

When I interview people for LGD inquiries, before I will help them find a breeder I try to get as much info as I can... there have been a few people where I had to basically tell them a LGD is not the right kind of guardian for you. When I share what the nature of the LGD is and yes, they will do this, yes they will do that etc. and I hear the responses that speaks volumes. Some grasp the idea that these dogs really are different others simply do not, they are convinced they will not allow this or that... things that go against the nature. In the end these are the people that end up putting their Anatolians and Pyrenees up on CL... usually damaged goods by then.

I know you worry about the what ifs! I completely understand. I do wonder about the what ifs to.

 

[fluttervale]

Even in "obedience breeds" we sometimes have trouble with recalls.

I have Labradors. They are the BEST dogs ever, but LGD's they are not. Even despite that, one of mine had a very questionable recall until she was maybe 5 years old. They know when they're on a leash and when they aren't, and they have to WANT to please you at the precise second you call them. If your obedience trainer doesn't have a lot of experience with LGD's or terriers or spitz breeds, it might be rough. I've worked with trainers that were amazing with breeds like Border Collies, Shelties, and GSD's, but didn't really "get" the difference between working a sporting breed and working a herding breed, let alone the difference between working a breed that works WITH people and a breed that works FOR people. You can work a herding breed like a sporting breed and vice versa, and get decent results. Not so much once you step outside the realm of "obedience breeds."

I bet Toli isn't as food motivated as a Labrador is. My labs will do, quite literally, ANYTHING for food.

 

[Robbin]

Finally gave up and took Toli out of class. The primary focus of the class now is loose leash walking and Heal. Toli rarely sees a leash, never gives ground (which they need to do for loose leash walking) and is totally frustrated by the whole exercise. Puppy class was great because at the end of class, everyone took the leashs off and the puppies played. Even aggressive ones quickly got over it. Can't do that with a bunch of you adult dogs with real teeth. So they don't get to socialize a lot, so I gave up. He loves the game of going thru the commands for treats, but when the "game" is not in progress, he goes back to the usually, I'll come if I feel like it mode. I'll keep working the recall with him, he has gotten better but still no hope if something has caught his eye like a deer or dog. My trainer agreed with my decision. She said he is an awesome guard dog with a great temperment, pushing him would be counter productive.
Robbin

 

[Team Taylor]

I actually incorporated some of my retriever training methods on my Anatolian. I started with a 50 ft and then 100 ft check cord when working on "come" and had decent results but still got the look sometimes. I then decided to use an e collar and within a few sessions I was able to just put the collar on her and didn't turn it on. Another week and I think it finally clicked and haven't had to use the collar at all. Couldn't ask for a better response from her.

 

[Robbin]

Hi Taylor,
I really didn't want to use an e collar, but it's hunting season and he crossed our property line chasing a deer. I got a good one with long range and a paging function that vibrates. So you warn or train with the pager. I had to shock him twice. Both times very near my property lines and out of my sight. Since then a page is all it has taken to break him off the chase and he returns directly to me. I still only use it to break a chase, thou I don't wait till he's near the property line anymore, I want him to learn to break off a chase when I call. I want to be careful and not break his spirit, but I don't dare let him get off the property in pursuit of a deer during deer season. The results could be tragic.
Thanks for the tip,
Robbin

 

[Southern by choice]

What kind of collars did you guys choose?

 

[Robbin]

Dogtra 1900NCP Field Star 1/2 mile Training Collar Single Dog
· Precise stimulation level (0-127); 1/2-mile range
· Nick, constant, and non-stimulating vibration modes
· Rechargeable Ni-MH batteries
· Fully waterproof collar/receiver and transmitter
· LCD screen displays exact level of stimulation even in dark or low light conditions; 3-bar battery life indicator
This is the one I got, pretty expensive, but I needed the range to cover 80 acres. Toli is a big, very fast, dog and he can get out of range of the short range ones fast. I didn’t want to ride around with it in my hand, as I was afraid I'd press it by accident, so I had to have the range to make up for how long it took me to deploy and set the controller. I also wanted the Nick, which is a very short warning nick and the pager vibration. Some people train with these like clicker training because you dial up the level till the dog can just barely feel it. I couldn’t do that as Toli is confused with it because I have an inground electric fence. I think it would have been a great training aid if not for the fence. Toli can’t feel it below 25, about 29 he notices it enough to pay attention, thou I’m sure it doesn’t hurt. Above 50 is painful, thou I had to go above 70 the first time he was chasing a deer. I only had to shock him twice, the pager is all I need now to break him off a chase, and frankly, I can usually break him off with my voice now. He knows that if he continues it’s going to get worse…. I really enjoy my walks with him now, knowing he’s safe. He also knows when I put the collar on we’re going for a run and he’s all excited. I run him about a half mile at a trot with a 100yard dash in the middle, and then get off and walk him another quarter of a mile.

I swapped the collar for a quick release one so I could pop it on and off when taking him out. He gets so excited that it was hard to get the old collar buckled before he was off and running. I sure do love the big fella.

 

[Southern by choice]

Thank You!
I have never used a training collar in 35 years. I have been around those that use them with their hunting dogs to train though. We will bring in LGD's for training here, right now pups only. Eventually we will rehab older LGD's that are being given up for behavior issues. I am looking at which collars people like best to utilize this in the re-training of LGD's. Does this one allow for multiple dogs to be trained at once?
I love reading about Toli! I love pics too ! hint hint.
These dogs are so special!
Hoping to find a brindle Anatolian in the next year!

 

[Robbin]

You can get collars for 2 dogs, but I think they are a differnt freq so you switch between collars with a button on the controller. I haven't used one, this is the first one I've ever purchased. Did a ton of research before settling on this one. I was hoping to use it as a training tool but the inground fence is a problem. They told me I could use it, but I should take the dog out of the area so they aren't confused by it. I don't have a good safe place to go with a big dog so I just decided to use mine as a last stop recall, and it's worked. It's worked even better than I expected as Toli figured out the loud NO! came before the shock.

Toli turned 9 months today, got to buy heartworm meds which means I have to haul him in and weight him, so I'll probably get another picture and update my previous thread with a new pic. He looks full grown now thou I'm sure he'll put on a little more weight between 9 months and 18 months. He was 114 last time I took him in.