Questioning breeder ethics

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

I made a rookie mistake of trusting the breeder will call BR more than I probably should have and ended up with a doe that has sore hocks. In my defense, I have not had a rabbit with this problem before, but I should have known to look more closely but they were small sores, about the size of the tip of my finger and the fur along side covered them pretty well. I did notice ear mites, a very mild case deep in the canal of one ear, and since I quarantine very well, I did accept the doe knowing that much. BR told me at the time that this was the only doe she had at that age because she must have missexxed the other one she had also advertised.

As to contacting BR afterward, I did the very next day, just to let her know in case the sore hocks was cause by bacteria and was contagious to her other rabbits. She did not respond. I was not upset or accusing, nor did I ask anything of her, even though I paid full price by her rates for the doe. I just informed her as gently as I could, as I would want someone to do the same if it were me, but I handle my rabbits more than most and I would not sell a rabbit with such a problem.

I also try to stay in contact with the people to whom I sell for at least a month after to see if everything is going okay and I ask them to contact me when they have their first kindle. I also try to stay in touch with breeders from whom I buy as well as, which is how all the rest of this surfaced.

Three weeks later one of my buyers also bought a doe the same age as mine from BR. She used to show rabbits, so not a newbie and always quarantines. It was rather dark and she missed that her doe had ear mites (and much worse than the one I got) but she noticed the doe was just slightly underweight. All is good for her now and the doe kindled a few days ago.

Then yesterday one other breeder, from whom I bought a related pair, was telling me of a doe that had sore hocks offered by BR that she rejected about a week before I bought mine in December, which is the one that I bought.

So, that is two incidents where I have some certainty that BR knew of health issues in her rabbits, but instead of curing or culling, she kept trying to sell them and all it took was a desperate few who are trusting enough....well, live and learn.

The thing is BR bought many of her rabbits from a highly reputable breeder, who decided to drop her rabbits and reduce her other herds a couple of years ago as it was getting to be too much with her age, and she referred me to BR last summer, but BR did not have what I wanted at the time and did not contact me back. So BR has some very good, maybe even show quality, stock, but I am concerned about buying from her or referring anyone to her. And yet, I try to stay friendly with the breeders in my area, because things happen and I might need to buy unrelated rabbits again.

I really want to believe the best of people always and I know things can just go bad temporarily with any kind of livestock. She many just be overwhelmed as I believe that she just had too many animals at that time for her homestead setting.

I do not know if I have a specific question, just wanted to hear others thoughts about all this.

 

[BoboFarm]

Whether she was overwhelmed with too many animals or not, she should have been honest about the condition of the rabbits.

As far as purchasing more rabbits from her, I would definitely be more thorough when you check them over. I would also add a buyer beware if you recommend BR to anyone.

I'm not sure I'd buy from her again. Maybe only as a last resort if you don't have any more options.

 

[Bunnylady]

Are these animals Rex, by chance?

Sore hocks are very, very common in the Rex breeds. Apparently, the shorter coat may not make for good, thick foot pads. People who breed Rex-coated rabbits often have "sitting boards" in the cages to give the rabbits' feet a break from the wire. At a show, the judges kind of expect to see bare patches, even on the Mini Rex; as long as there aren't open sores, it's not a DQ.

That said, since the breeder had been made aware that this rabbit had sore feet, she should at least have said so before she sold it. As to the ear mites - maybe she doesn't recognize a minor case, or maybe she thinks she has it under control, but doesn't, who knows? I once bought some rabbits that I knew had ear mites; I was doing both the breeder and the rabbits a favor by taking them.

Rabbit people are almost as gossipy as horse people, so word tends to get around about breeders who don't take good care of their stock. "Be careful when buying from this person" may be all that gets said, but we know . . . .

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

@BoboFarm Thank you. That is pretty much where I am at.

@Bunnylady Not a Rex, but I thank you for the info on the breed.

I am transitioning over to Silver Foxes only and replacing aging does after we had been doing NZW and SF purebreds and crosses (hence all the surprise colorings in my kindles especially of late with a new NZW buck that is going to a new start-up NZW meat breeder in about two to three weeks), so I am only buying Silver Fox purebreds presently.

We have warming pads, which even when turned off give the rabbits a smooth surface off the wires. I tried giving her a nesting box filled with hay, which she seemed to like but she began using it as bathroom and I was concerned it would exacerbate the problem or even infect the sores, so I removed it and have some hay in her cage in places she does not go, but likes to lie. I am really disappointed because she feels lean in the hips and legs, probably because she is not moving naturally in order to avoid the pain. She seems to be under the weight she should be for her size, but not bony anywhere else. I was hoping to breed her at the end of the month but I am thinking I might not want to do that now.

Silver Fox breeders are few and far between in our area, so we do keep track of who is doing what more than others, I suppose. This is the only well-established breeder I have run across that has done stuff like this, but that creates another question about ethical practices for me as it is one thing to not refer people to her, but another to steer people away even if done "gently," it could get around too. The other breeder that has dealt with her more often does not refer people to her directly but acts as a broker by going to inspect and pick the rabbits herself and then delivers them to her clients. That was only done because she did not have does to sell herself at the time and BR does has good pedigreed stock.

 

[Bunnylady]

Silver Fox are pretty thin everywhere; I'm not sure they have ever been what could be called a common breed. They used to show in Blue and Black.

The ARBA has a requirement that a breed or color variety has to have a minimum number of animals (too lazy to look this up, but I believe it's 25) entered at Convention during the 5 years between updates of the Standard of Perfection. The Silver Fox lost Blue because the breeders couldn't manage to bring 25 showable Blues to Convention during a 5 year period.

To get a color introduced/reinstated, the holder of the Certificate of Development has to bring a show quality Senior Buck, Senior Doe, Junior Buck, and Junior Doe to convention, where they are evaluated by a group of judges. The Juniors have to be the offspring of the Seniors, and the entire group has to pass inspection. If they can pass 3 times in 5 years, the variety becomes official.

During the roughly 40 years since Blue was lost, and however many COD holders there have been during that time, nobody has managed to get 4 decent Blues to convention for the required 3 out of 5 years. I know unexpected things happen in people's lives, but I suspect a good part of this is because there just isn't that large a pool to draw from. I know there are currently COD's for Blue and Chocolate; hopefully this interest in adding colors reflects a renewed interest in the breed as a whole.

 

[secuono]

Silver Fox are very common in Va. I got out of rabbits once I realized everyone and their cousins were suddenly breeding them. Tons of crap quality for dirt cheap sprung up everywhere!

I wonder what was wrong with the rabbit to get sore hocks....SF are so nice, furwise. Does this doe still have issues?

Ear mites are hard to recognize for most. Many don't notice it until the rabbit droops an ear, heavy scabs up high on the ear are visible, head tilts and/or shakes it's head all the time. I could tell by feel for slight heat or reaction change to touch.

I wouldn't buy from BR again.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

Silver Fox are pretty thin everywhere....

@Bunnylady When I read this line, I thought you were referring to their fur at first.

I really did not know about the COD so I really do thank you educating me. I was told just this week that the sister of one of my bucks won Best of Opposite recently.

I love the SF breed on many levels but partially because it is so uncommon and another part is it was developed very close to where I was born and lived as a child. I want to help preserve and improve the breed so I may show eventually. I think quality has been an issue within the breed. Lots of people use them in cross breeding and I read once that a SF cross won Best of Breed. However, I do think we are struggling with consistency with the body type, at least in my area I have seen more pinched hips than I would like and the bucks I have seen tend to be on the small side. Which is another reason this is such a dilemma for me: good stock, unethical breeder. But eventually I could have better stock....a girl can dream.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

I wonder what was wrong with the rabbit to get sore hocks....SF are so nice, furwise. Does this doe still have issues?

@secuono It is hard for me to imagine how a SF would develop sore hocks, too. I was not invited to see the rabbitry, so I have no idea what kind of wires she had or the cage conditions. The doe looked clean and healthy overall.

I am working with the sore hocks. One of my specialities is doctoring animals, even the neighbors' cats would come to me when they were hurt. But I have not had sore hocks before so....I am not sure how long it will take, but I believe they are improving. Otherwise the doe is really great, except she has become lean in the hips and legs, probably due to the sore hocks.

I get that ear mites are difficult to see for some people or on some animals, but the breeder knew that my doe had them because I showed her. If one of my rabbits had them I would be checking/treating them all and I would point it out to a buyer if the rabbit had been treated recently even if it looked clear at the time. I just try to do business with everyone as I would prefer to be treated, but I sometimes forget that is not how other people go about things.

Thank you.

 

[Bunnylady]

Silver Fox are very common in Va. I got out of rabbits once I realized everyone and their cousins were suddenly breeding them. Tons of crap quality for dirt cheap sprung up everywhere!

Maybe what I should have said is, "good Silver Fox are thin . . . !" The Livestock Conservancy is listing them as "threatened," and a lot of folks will jump onto the rare breed bandwagon without a clue about what they are doing. Barely recognizable animals get sold as breeders because "it's a rare breed!"

a SF cross won Best of Breed.

This is something I keep telling people - a pedigree is not required to put an animal on the show table, and as long as it looks enough like the breed it is entered as, it gets its chance (you do need a complete pedigree for registration, though, and a rabbit must be registered to become a Grand Champion). People do out-crosses all the time. Since the longish, standing coat and the silvering that are typical of a SF would be problematic for another breed, I'm assuming this particular crossbred animal was entered as a SF, and whatever breed it was crossed with only improved the type without degrading the other features.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

Maybe what I should have said is, "good Silver Fox are thin . . . !" The Livestock Conservancy is listing them as "threatened," and a lot of folks will jump onto the rare breed bandwagon without a clue about what they are doing. Barely recognizable animals get sold as breeders because "it's a rare breed!"

And that just changed one or two years ago from being "critical." I get your point, but because SF was on the critical list previously, people got interested in saving the breed. Most of the dedicated SF breeders I know are not showing, yet they are still working towards show quality.

Since the longish, standing coat and the silvering that are typical of a SF would be problematic for another breed, I'm assuming this particular crossbred animal was entered as a SF, and whatever breed it was crossed with only improved the type without degrading the other features.

It was entered as a Silver Fox, sorry for not making that clearer. I would have liked to know what that breed used to cross was.