Questioning breeder ethics

[Run Rabbit Run]

@BoboFarm Thank you. That is pretty much where I am at.

@Bunnylady Not a Rex, but I thank you for the info on the breed.

I am transitioning over to Silver Foxes only and replacing aging does after we had been doing NZW and SF purebreds and crosses (hence all the surprise colorings in my kindles especially of late with a new NZW buck that is going to a new start-up NZW meat breeder in about two to three weeks), so I am only buying Silver Fox purebreds presently.

We have warming pads, which even when turned off give the rabbits a smooth surface off the wires. I tried giving her a nesting box filled with hay, which she seemed to like but she began using it as bathroom and I was concerned it would exacerbate the problem or even infect the sores, so I removed it and have some hay in her cage in places she does not go, but likes to lie. I am really disappointed because she feels lean in the hips and legs, probably because she is not moving naturally in order to avoid the pain. She seems to be under the weight she should be for her size, but not bony anywhere else. I was hoping to breed her at the end of the month but I am thinking I might not want to do that now.

Silver Fox breeders are few and far between in our area, so we do keep track of who is doing what more than others, I suppose. This is the only well-established breeder I have run across that has done stuff like this, but that creates another question about ethical practices for me as it is one thing to not refer people to her, but another to steer people away even if done "gently," it could get around too. The other breeder that has dealt with her more often does not refer people to her directly but acts as a broker by going to inspect and pick the rabbits herself and then delivers them to her clients. That was only done because she did not have does to sell herself at the time and BR does has good pedigreed stock.

Hi There, I am new to this group, but I raise SF. The nationals show will be at Greensboro NC 3/17/18 this year. check with the NSFRC website, there will be lots of breeders with nice rabbits available. https://www.facebook.com/events/1290735887682356/

 

[Bunnylady]

I checked the NSFRC website, and couldn't find any mention of the Greensboro show.The ARBA listing for the show didn't have a Silver Fox specialty mentioned, either, though from the specialties that are listed, it looks like some other clubs might be having their nationals at that show as well. I know, people who do the websites have other things to do, too, so sometimes the ball gets dropped and "word of mouth" between breeders can still be the best way to find out about these things.

I haven't been to a show in G'boro in a few years, but unless things have changed radically, it should be a well-run show and a pleasure to attend.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

@Run Rabbit Run Welcome! I am pretty knew here too.

I was hoping to carpool but contact just unpooled. I suppose I do need to make solid plans one way or the other this week. Are you going?

 

[Run Rabbit Run]

I checked the NSFRC website, and couldn't find any mention of the Greensboro show.The ARBA listing for the show didn't have a Silver Fox specialty mentioned, either, though from the specialties that are listed, it looks like some other clubs might be having their nationals at that show as well. I know, people who do the websites have other things to do, too, so sometimes the ball gets dropped and "word of mouth" between breeders can still be the best way to find out about these things.

I haven't been to a show in G'boro in a few years, but unless things have changed radically, it should be a well-run show and a pleasure to attend.

Had to do a little searching myself! Sorry about that.... https://www.facebook.com/events/1290735887682356/
above is the link to the info.

 

[Run Rabbit Run]

@Run Rabbit Run Welcome! I am pretty knew here too.

I was hoping to carpool but contact just unpooled. I suppose I do need to make solid plans one way or the other this week. Are you going?

I like the backyard chicken site and didn't realize there was a page for rabbits too! I joined because I've been looking at my wood and field and thinking about a few goats! Shhh, don't tell my husband!

 

[promiseacres]

Couple of things when pointing out working with the less common breeds.
Breeders are not going to sell a BOB unless they are selling out, they are working with the "culls" or "parts rabbit they have." They may in fact feel as if they are doing you a "favor" by selling you what you've been searching for even if it's not perfect. There's a learning curve with any breed...sometimes years, a breeder whose had that breed longer is usually a better source as to their own critiques. That being said if you get a presented rabbit with health problems you don't have to buy it. I would assume this breeder doesn't see sore hocks or earmites an issue and personally not purchase again. Unfortunately it is a buyer beware situation....
in my breed (velveteen lops ) there are 2 extremes in breeders. 1. sell any and all 2. sell nothing. At this point I am in the middle I do sell some that I consider brood and sometimes it bites me with a bad review....why because the buyer is so thrilled to find x and even though I try to cover the bases things do turn up I swear they get stars in their eyes that later becomes my fault.... makes it hard to want to continue.... last summer I sold a trio to a new to the breed buyer. She lost both does after a month or so...she said bloat but it went on too long in my opinion to had been true bloat.... in any case she was interested in my other rabbits. And I sold her an experienced brood doe and another her brood doe for a discounted price due her problems. I also offered her free of charge her choice of 2 jr bucks. Both weren't great but definitely brood in my opinion. Since tgen the sr brood doe had a litter for her...and ate the babies....culled her (am still floored about this change as she was an excellent brood for me) culled the free buck because he didn't have a nice temperment....again that's up to her, he was hers. She has threatened to cull the last doe as she hasn't settled as a young doe nor is show quality....I told her up front she wasn't but was what I had available.... she does like the original buck. Since we are on the same groups she likes to whine about how she had to cull 3/4th her herd already... has never called me out but in any case she was buying like crazy last summer, not just from me. IDK I don't plan on ever selling her a rabbit.again..just feel as something is off with the deaths then major behavior changes in these rabbits. And probably won't be selling as many this year... I do take it personally, maybe I shouldn't. I had a hard time getting anyone to sell my first one and yes have bought some I didn't end up being what I thought I was getting. But I don't blame the seller... I knew I was getting a parts rabbit.... and there are breeders I wouldn't buy from again. Rant over sorry for the long post...obviously you need to do what you think is best if the breeder isn't up to your standards or you feel they are dishonest you really need to move on.

 

[promiseacres]

I guess my point is with a low numbers of breeders is don't make a name for yourself as a hard to please buyer.

 

[Tale of Tails Rabbitry]

I guess my point is with a low numbers of breeders is don't make a name for yourself as a hard to please buyer.

I agree, as that is one of my concerns, but there is hard to please as a buyer and then there is a breeder/seller selling rabbits that at least one other breeder/buyer rejected because of health issues that she pointed out to the seller, so the seller knew...and yet the seller continued with selling the same rabbit to another buyer. So, in this case, I have one buyer that knew she was trying to sell a doe with sore hocks and I have a buyer that bought another doe with ear mites, after she told me she did not have the second one that age, and this was three weeks after I bought ours showing her the ear mites. These health issues were definitely KNOWN by the seller. I always get people the benefit of the doubt until it is absurd and I think it is there.

I think this is a completely different situation @promiseacres than yours and, in your case, I agree that I would probably not sell to that buyer again.

I am unfamiliar with the term "parts rabbit" but it sounds like it has certain qualities that are good or excellent, but at least one or more major flaws...?

 

[promiseacres]

I think this is a completely different situation @promiseacres than yours and, in your case, I agree that I would probably not sell to that buyer again.

I am unfamiliar with the term "parts rabbit" but it sounds like it has certain qualities that are good or excellent, but at least one or more major flaws...?

yes. As velveteen lops are in development (though over 25 years) a parts rabbit has 1 or more DQS or Faults. Weight has to be 5 to 6.5#, 15 " ears tip to tip, the mandolin type and rex coat. So most of my does meet everything but their weight is 7+#, I have nice young buck his ears are 14.75" but excellent type.

 

[Bunnylady]

Sometimes, you may think you have explained something very clearly, and later find out that the person you were talking to really didn't hear you at all.

I remember telling a new Holland Lop breeder about "peanuts;" how they were unavoidable if you bred two show quality Hollands together, and that inheriting two copies of the dwarfing gene meant that they could not survive. I thought she understood what I was saying, yet a few weeks later, I hear that she is tearfully, desperately trying to hand feed some that had been born in a litter her doe had just had. Somehow, she just hadn't grasped that "lethal gene" meant that they would die.

I think that anyone who is serious about a breed really needs to show, or at least have someone who shows to mentor them. While the ARBA's frequent updates of their standards are intended to make clear what is expected and accepted in a breed, sometimes people just don't understand the words. Also, words only get you so far; some things (like wool texture) are better felt to really be appreciated.

And then there is the matter of "hutch blindness." A breeder can be absolutely convinced that their animals are truly exceptional, when someone who has show experience wouldn't look at them twice. A judge's remarks can help pinpoint areas that need improving . . . assuming the judge actually knows what they are talking about (with nearly 50 breeds recognized by the ARBA, it shouldn't be surprising that a judge might not be familiar with some of the less popular ones).