Ram being harassed by Male Pyr

[woodsie]

I have had some challenges with my male Pyr Sampson as my ram is now breeding the ewes. Since the frost has hit I have come into the pasture a couple times and found my ram cut off from the herd of ewes and pressed into a corner with lot of slobber on his chest, no blood or injuries but definitely destressed and Sampson very excited and panting. It didn't take a lot of deduction to realize that Sam had herded the ram off the herd and cornered him, but all the sheep were quite stressed over the whole situation. I have removed the ram and put him into the adjacent pasture with the ram lambs and everything seems to be normal again, however, as a ewe comes into heat and is against the fence I have let the ram back in with the ewes....as the ram returns to his ladies I noticed that he is checking out all the ewes and is chasing them and the ewes are annoyed and minorly stressed as he tries to do his mounting on ladies that are not ready. I now see why Sampson was trying to seperate the ram from the ewes to solve the problem of the stressed ewes...I understand where he was coming from but need him to know that it is not acceptable behaviour.

When I put the ram back in and he was chasing the ladies, Sam was just watching on the hill, I told him he was a "good boy" but I am not sure if I had missed something in his training and how to good relationship back with his sheep. On another note, the sheep have been more skiddish with the dogs since these incidences as there was obviously chasing involved where as they used to sleep and chew their cud with the dogs in the middle of the flock just like a good LGD would, now they seem more nervous around the dogs. I have had no issues with the goats, this only involves the sheep. Any tips and advice would be welcome in dealing with this breeding issue would be appreciated.

 

[Southern by choice]

Woodsie does the ram turn at all and "ram" your male pyr?

You may need to put your female in and remove your male. Your right, not desirable, yet he thinks he is protecting the ewes.
Has this ram always been part of the flock? Is he "use" to the ram?
If I remember right he is not a young male that is confused, it sounds very much like a dominance issue.
If that is the case then you have several options...let him get hit hard by a ram that won't tolerate this. If that isn't an option then, separate him at least during the breeding cycle, or training collar or lead train. The last two take time which you probably don't have.

 

[woodsie]

My ram is extremely docile...to the extreme. I have rarely seen him ram or even stand/square off around anything. He might push a bit at the grain trough but that is all....I love him as he is a beautiful big ram and is super gentle and easy to work but in this case I wish he would stand up for himself a bit. I have twice found him in the corner with his head down just standing in a corner hoping that the dog will leave him alone.

The ram has been in with the ewes, lambs and dogs since last winter with no incidences, but this is the first time the dogs have been in the pasture during the sheeps breeding time. He's been around the goats but the goats have been no issue at all, in fact the goats sleep with the dogs. Today has been fine, but I hate to be waking up at night worrying if there is an issue in the pasture....I totally thought we were in the clear with behaviour issues as everyone was getting along famously until breeding season hit. I have chosen to remove the ram and just give him conjugal (sp?) visits, as the ram and ewes can see eachother through the fence it has been easy enough to spot. I have considered getting a training collar as Sampson is extremely responsive to hotwire and zapps...the trouble is that is often at 4am or the middle of the night and is difficult to "set up" as the ram is in there now and everyone seems content today. It might be that I have to keep the ram removed and then put them in a seperate pen for a couple cycles till everyone is bred....its just a problem right now because I still have my ram lambs around for another month. Ah, for now I guess I will be moving him back for night and in with the ewes for the day...luckily he is relatively easy to work with and not the "typical nasty ram". I have found very little info on this issue online and was wondering what the drive/issue is.

Sampson turned 3 yesterday and is a very sensitive / intuitive dog that can pick up on subtle issues and devises his idea of solutions very quickly....can be a good or bad thing. I have seen him chase lambs get them into a tight group with the ewes and move them away from a fence where there was something lurking....or sense my frustration with my cow (she wasn't lettting me dump her grain in the bucket) and start short barking (herding type barks) to get her to back up....very facinating and respectful when I correct him but he is quick to come up with his "solution". Do you think neutering might help? He has gorgeous puppies but my first priority is having a stable dog and if the breeding hormones are compounding the problem it would definitely make the decision a quick one....I think I am going to neuter him anyhow but I was wondering if that might be part of the issue.

 

[Southern by choice]

Some dogs have extremely high dominance. Pups with extreme dominance need to be corrected and left with parents longer as they help the dog to understand positive and negative dominance issues. If this is the case he is a bit old here to modify it to the extent you'd want it to be. The pup here for training displayed these traits at 8-9 weeks. Constant human correction and allowing our older LGD's to work with him is proving to help him understand his role and job is to be submissive to the livestock. The larger no non-sense goats and the female LGD's are "learnin'" him well.

Neutering at this age will rarely make much of a difference. As far as passing on these genes.... unlikely. Each pup has distinct strengths and in an average litter there will be one pup with extreme dominance.... there is a range in scoring a pup when I assess them. Those that are a 10 are placed, or should be, in a particular environment. In your boy's case it is difficult at this point to tell if this is his true temperament or was it in the growing up stage. I say that because of his background, which you have already shared on previous posts, and the fact that you have been able to do this dog an incredible service. You saved this dog in every way!

Sometimes a dog with lack of confidence (true confidence) may "display" an air of "dominance" yet is compensating. These dogs usually show the "I am not sure what to do" traits. They can still be fine guardians but have to be watched a bit closer.

I know this doesn't help much but given how far you have brought him and how much better he is it may be a situation where you may need to accept his limitations. Work with him and see if he continues to mature. If anyone can do it you can Woodsie!

All 4 of my dogs are very different. 2 are brothers but raised separately. One, Badger, walks gingerly around a chicken and is the "kid daddy" and adores his little goats. Gentle as can be yet fierce in his field and we cannot take a person in with him, we can bring him out but no one goes in ever. He also likes "his area" and doesn't like to be moved to another field. His brother D, highly confident, never needs to display dominance despite being the alpha, less bondy with livestock but will guard anything anytime anywhere will charge right through the chickens. We can bring people into the field with him as long as they do not mess with any kids. Both males excellent at what they do yet complete different temperaments.

These traits are identifiable beginning 6-8weeks, 8-10 becomes very clear and 10-12 can be fully assessed to be placed for the proper environment. This is also the imprinting stage so leaving the pup with parent stock through 12 weeks best prepares the dog for its future job. That is the reason why so many have LGD pup issues because breeders push them out the door at 6-8 weeks with no clue of evaluating the pup. So don't be worried about the genes, it is mostly about being a good responsible breeder that does right by the people and does the work with the pups to set them up for success and not failure.

 

[woodsie]

thanks Southern, the pups are doing really well and at 9 weeks I am really seeing their personalities emerge and have recommended and placed them in what I believe to be the most appropriate homes...all but one will be going between 10 and 12 weeks all to homes with livestock or hundreds of acres to patrol from predators. My most dominant one is going up really far north and is going to be an outside farm guardian in a well-experienced home...actually they have Tatra Mountain Dogs that they imported from Poland and just lost the male to old age and still have the female that will take over the training when he goes to his new home.

I was considering neutering Sampson more for the fact that I thought it might help decrease the sensitivity to the hormones at breeding time but not sure as it was the one website I found that seemed to address the issue of livestock breeding issues with the LGD. He is a gorgeous and impressive dog that is usually extremely well-behaved with the livestock so this is a real shock to see him act like this. It may be corrected as I gave him a good scolding the last time I caught this issue...but I am keeping a very close eye on him and listening closely to the pasture. I don't like that Sampson seems to be on high alert/too interested with the ram still even if he is not herding him off, hopefully he will get that the ram is just doing his job and realize it is normal/acceptable behaviour. He got lots of "leave it" when he looked too interested in the ram (perky ears, high tail, bright eyes), praying it will sink in soon.

 

[woodsie]

well I think we may have resolved the issue the last time the ram was chasing the girls I praised Sampson for just watching and it seems like he knows its okay behaviour now....its raining here and Sampson the pups and the ram with a couple goats are all in the shelter together having a snooze like all is right in the world .

I think it may have been that he had just never been around sheep breeding before and it was still something new that he had to be taught what was appropriate. I guess just one of the disadvantages of rescuing a dog that was not raised around livestock...he's three and had never been around breeding sheep...hopefully next time around there won't be an issue.

 

[Southern by choice]

Great testimony of much your boy loves and respects you. He trusts you.
Now it makes sense, didn't realize he had never been around that before.

It would be so great for some pics! Hint Hint!