Sharing our copper / selenium problem ...Sept. update / pics pg 8

[Ariel301]

I had to feed some really crappy hay all winter too, and my goats look awful. Rough coats, flaky skin, thin coats on the older girls, pale eyelids, fish tails, the does are skinny, and the kids are a little thin and not quite as big as they ought to be, despite deworming everyone, free-choice mineral, and mineral and calf-manna hidden in their grain. I think the hay I got was just really, really lacking in EVERYTHING. My neighbor's goats got about the same way over the winter, and after a few weeks of feeding them large doses of a good mineral, she's seeing improvement. We have a real problem with feed stores here not carrying anything for goats, and not doing special orders, and having a bag of mineral shipped from Jeffers is rather out of my budget, but that's what my neighbor finally did. Then we went into the feed store and harrassed them into ordering us a bunch. It should be here this week. I drenched my goats with a large dose of copper sulfate about a month ago and saw no improvement.

I also got a load of the best hay I could find, had to pay $18 a bale for it, but at this point, I don't think I can skimp on anything for a while. :/

 

[whetzelmomma]

It's been a rough year for a TON of goatie people I know!! Keep us posted if you hear more!! Copper/Selenium info and theory is something I'm super interested in right now.

 

[helmstead]

The variable I can't comment on is the copper drench...so I don't know how that might affect toxicity.

I would be curious of the molybdenum levels in the hay. This interferes with copper absorption, and from what I understand heavy fertilization, drought, etc can effect the levels to such a high point that it's extremely difficult to get in front of the deficiency.

It would be interesting to see what your circulating levels are. Since copper is stored in the liver, you wouldn't see toxicity unless they dumped it for some reason...but if circulating levels are high, I'd just bet the liver levels are too high, also.

 

[20kidsonhill]

I thought molybdenum levels in the hay was more of an alfalfa hay problem, but could be wrong about that, and too tired to look it up right now.
Besides feeding grass hay from a drought season, we have two major changes in our feeding this winter, we fed alfalfa for the first time, one 40 lb bale a day per 20 does, and we added beet pulp to their feed at the rate of 1 cup of dry beet pulp per doe. The girls milked/nursed like crazy, but I am seeing some of the worst hair coats ever, and we struggled with hoof problems this winter.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that now they are weaned and back on only pasture and loose minerals, we will see some major improvements in them before breeding season.

 

[freemotion]

The leaves are not fully out here on all the trees, but as soon as they are, I'll be out there with my loppers cutting down branches for the girls. Only the sugar maples are fully leafed out, and I only have enough for the kids right now. Watch out, trees, here I come!

We had a major drought here last summer and the farmers probably fertilized like crazy in the fall.

 

[Roll farms]

Well, I've got my husband on one side telling me "you're giving them too much stuff." and the vet on the other side telling me, "It sounds like you're doing all the right things." and me sitting smack dab in the middle w/ a bunch of crappy-lookin' goats I'm worried about.

Blood tests were the only thing I could think of to give me some *real* idea of what's what....

Penny turned red last year and I drenched her w/ copper sulfate a lot and gave her red cell daily for a good while....later, when we did our CAE testing I had him pull blood from her and Hillary (who looked wonderful) and check it. Penny was 'high' copper, and Hillary was 'low normal'.
So Penny did NOT get copper sulfate this fall (because she was already testing high) but did get the copper bolus in March....because by then she was turning red again.

Another 'odd' thing...Penny is the mineral-snarfing-est creature EVER. She'd eat it daily if I'd let her. I would think / always thought that if they didn't 'need' it, they didn't eat it. Not her...she loves the stuff.

So her issue could be overdose, partly what I give her and partly what she eats on her own. Or she could be deficient and that's why she's always a mineral hog....

But Patch looked like crap when I got her, and wasn't here for the drench, just the bolus.

I *do* know the hay they've got now (its so pretty and greeeen, and they actually eat it instead of waste it) was NOT fertilized...I double checked.

I just want to know if I need to keep bolusing, stop bolusing, stop BoSe-ing, do more BoSe-ing, etc. etc.
Or do I need to stand on my head while playing the banjo and singing "Oh Canada" or something...because for all my efforts and fretting and trying all I can....I may as well be....since they still look bad.



Got the bill in the mail today...OUCH...how come the bills come faster than the results?

 

[20kidsonhill]

OUr vet says, loose minerals should always be more than enough, and my husband is like your husband, he is worried about them getting too much. I am trying to do something in between, We decided to do one bolus a rear in the spring, with the hopes it would help build up their blood levels before breeding, plus help with barber pole worms, and I only give 2cc of Bo-se, instead of the 3 or 4 they would actually need by weight. They get two shots of Bo-Se a year, one before breeding, one before kidding.


I was really hoping we would see an amazing change in hair coat after bolusing, but I haven't noticed really much of anything, Since I talked my husband into trying to do it, and he hates bolusing. But lucky for me even though he doesn't like doing it, he is very good at it.

So far over the past 4 or 5 years of trying a new thing here and there, we have seen the most change in our goats after using equimax horse wormer paste. Within a week, it was amazing. Even my husband noticed with in 2 weeks how much better the goats looked and how shiny they started to get.

It isn't cheap to use at 3 or 4 dollars per adult goat. I don't use it on the younger goats that will be sold, I try not to use too much off label for goats going to market, Cocci is pretty much the only thing we treat them for, since we market around 4 to 5 months of age.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Bill for the blood tests? I will be very interested in the results. We've only had one herdmember who's been rough looking this year and thanks to some overpriced alfalfa hay he is looking sleek again. Even with good grass hay, grain, and plenty of alfalfa pellets he wasn't improving how I'd hoped. As soon as I switched him to alfalfa blend hay he started making drastic improvement. Who knows...

 

[Roll farms]

We decided to do one bolus a rear in the spring,

OUCH...glad I'm not on of your goats..

(I know that was a typo...but I had to...)

Yeah, Nicki, the bill for the tests, farm call, Purdue's fees, etc...for 5 does...$350.00

Penny's bill 2 wks ago for pullin' her kid was only $85!

 

[20kidsonhill]

I needed a laugh this morning, I have a head cold, my neck hurts, our air conditioning wont come on, 86 today, 93 tomorrow. I have noticed the older I get the harder it is to adjust to tempurature changes, I have had atleast 3 hot flashes already this morning.